All Purpose Coaching Thread - Maurice, Assistants, Potential Replacements etc.

[Jetfaninflorida]

If you did the reverse and gave league average goaltending to every season of Maurice's career instead of the horrific goaltending he received almost every year, would you come to conclusion he's an amazing coach?

I am not about to do that analysis. You are welcome to. But I believe it would lead me back to what I said about him - an average coach with a lot of experience. I already have given him the benefit of the doubt regarding his weak rosters/goaltending in calling him average. If we just look at his record he is well below true 0.500 an an NHL coach. He has over 100 more losses than wins. So that on it's own would say he is below average.

 

[sipowicz]

Watched the Leaf v Stars game last night, in OT both team had their best players out on the ice, still don't get how Mo had Laine and Ehlers sitting on the bench in OT against the Caps and instead had Little and clearly tired Wheeler out both fumbling around the ice!

 

[Whileee]

Do people still believe that save percentage has nothing to do with the quality of chances against?

 

[Ducky10]

I am still struggling in trying to convince myself that Maurice is anything other than an average NHL coach with a lot of experience. He has what, about a 0.513 coaching record, only being over 0.500 due to loser points. There is Jets team success this year so he deserves the coach's share of the credit. But when we look at the old saying, 'show me a good goalie and I will show you a good coach'' I think it applies to our success this year.

I did this calculation for fun and posted in another thread, but I think it belongs here. Just looking at Helle's shots faced, and doing a goals against calculation of Helle's 0.925 sv% vs a Pavelec like 0.906 sv% - we would have 34 more goals against.

Looking at goals differential and standings, we would drop from a +45 to a +11 goals differential. That would put is on the bubble and in a fight for the final wild card spot with Dallas (+15 diff) and Colorado (+17 diff).

Trust me, I struggle with this. All of the discussion around our depth and that we have the best top 9 in the NHL, and how great the free agent signings were, and how draft and/or develop has blossomed this year (Copp, Tanev, Roslo, KC), how another year of experience for Laine/Ehlers has improved their games, etc etc.

Then I look back to where we would be as a team if we still had a 0.906 guy like Pav instead of an allstar like Helle. And we would be on the bubble or on the outside of the playoffs. Just like other years.

I am having a hard time squaring this circle. How much of our success is really coaching or any/all of these other factors?

Serious question. It's hard for me to see how the lion's share of our success this year is not specifically attributable to Helle. Am I wrong? Help me understand.

Find me a good coach with crappy goaltending. Which contending team would not currently be on the bubble with .906 goaltending? The Jets are the 5th highest scoring team in the league, .906 goaltending is going to hurt other teams a lot more than us.

 

[Weezeric]

I am not about to do that analysis. You are welcome to. But I believe it would lead me back to what I said about him - an average coach with a lot of experience. I already have given him the benefit of the doubt regarding his weak rosters/goaltending in calling him average. If we just look at his record he is well below true 0.500 an an NHL coach. He has over 100 more losses than wins. So that on it's own would say he is below average.

It's pretty well known.

Does Paul Maurice make his goalies worse than they actually are? - Sportsnet.ca

It seems a little disingenuous to say that if a coach had worse goaltending the team would be worse and that's out of the coach's control, while disregarding the opposite.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

It's pretty well known.

Does Paul Maurice make his goalies worse than they actually are? - Sportsnet.ca

It seems a little disingenuous to say that if a coach had worse goaltending the team would be worse and that's out of the coach's control, while disregarding the opposite.

Sorry, but I don't get your response.

What I said: If you look only at Maurice's record, he is a below average coach (he has over 100 more losses than wins). But I consider him to be an about average coach (which is better than his record of below average) because I believe that he had below average roster/goaltending more often than not. So I don't see how I am 'disregarding the opposite'.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I am still struggling in trying to convince myself that Maurice is anything other than an average NHL coach with a lot of experience. He has what, about a 0.513 coaching record, only being over 0.500 due to loser points. There is Jets team success this year so he deserves the coach's share of the credit. But when we look at the old saying, 'show me a good goalie and I will show you a good coach'' I think it applies to our success this year.

I did this calculation for fun and posted in another thread, but I think it belongs here. Just looking at Helle's shots faced, and doing a goals against calculation of Helle's 0.925 sv% vs a Pavelec like 0.906 sv% - we would have 34 more goals against.

Looking at goals differential and standings, we would drop from a +45 to a +11 goals differential. That would put is on the bubble and in a fight for the final wild card spot with Dallas (+15 diff) and Colorado (+17 diff).

Trust me, I struggle with this. All of the discussion around our depth and that we have the best top 9 in the NHL, and how great the free agent signings were, and how draft and/or develop has blossomed this year (Copp, Tanev, Roslo, KC), how another year of experience for Laine/Ehlers has improved their games, etc etc.

Then I look back to where we would be as a team if we still had a 0.906 guy like Pav instead of an allstar like Helle. And we would be on the bubble or on the outside of the playoffs. Just like other years.

I am having a hard time squaring this circle. How much of our success is really coaching or any/all of these other factors?

Serious question. It's hard for me to see how the lion's share of our success this year is not specifically attributable to Helle. Am I wrong? Help me understand.

All the goalies in our system are doung better this year. Is coaching the teams to limit high danger shots boosting sv%? Could be. So is the goalie making the coach? Or is the coach making the goalie? I'd bet on some of each.

If we look at all the coaches who are competent at this level, is there really much difference among them? Babcock is supposed to be a coaching savant, but Leafs fans have exactly the same complaints with him that we have with PM. In fact, those same complaints seem to pop up regarding just about every coach.

I'm inclined to think that coaching is nearly = around the league with just a few exceptions at the very top and the bottom.

 

[10Ducky10]

92 points with 12 games left.
PK 3rd.
PP 4th.
5th overall in the league.
He played Little and Wheeler and Buff in OT?
FIRE HIM!

 

[kanadalainen]

92 points with 12 games left.
PK 3rd.
PP 4th.
5th overall in the league.
He played Little and Wheeler and Buff in OT?
FIRE HIM!

LOL

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

All the goalies in our system are doung better this year. Is coaching the teams to limit high danger shots boosting sv%? Could be. So is the goalie making the coach? Or is the coach making the goalie? I'd bet on some of each.

If we look at all the coaches who are competent at this level, is there really much difference among them? Babcock is supposed to be a coaching savant, but Leafs fans have exactly the same complaints with him that we have with PM. In fact, those same complaints seem to pop up regarding just about every coach.

I'm inclined to think that coaching is nearly = around the league with just a few exceptions at the very top and the bottom.

Interesting idea - you may be right. And if so, you probably agree with my assessment that Maurice is an average coach (one of the nearly = around the league) but with a lot of experience. Unless you think that he is one of the few exceptions at the bottom (probably not), or one of the exceptions at the very top (lololololololol).

 

[Gm0ney]

I don't think you are wrong, but isn't that true of all the "good" coaches as well? Nashville has a pretty good coach with a great record, riding a goalie with a .929 S%. Tampa Bay's coach looks pretty good too, oh wait, Vas is at .923. Gallant in Vegas, has MAF at 0.927 (this may be the outlier with all the injuries they had in the crease). Never the less, Quenneville not having Crawford's.929 for more than the 28 games he played, sure made him a bad coach fast.

Not a huge Maurice fan and I'd deem him average but your analysis is flawed given that the team as a whole sits mid table in terms of save percentage. We aren't getting out of this world goaltending as a whole and yet are still sitting quite high in the standings.

The Jets are currently ranked 4th in team SV% (.918) and they're 5th in the league in Points%. About where they should be, if you weight SV% as being a big factor in these things.
Vegas is actually ranked 15th in team SV% (.910) and they're 4th in the league in Points%.
The Penguins are 24th in team SV% (a Pavelecian .903!) and they're 10th in the league in Points%.

Very back-of-the-napkin "analytics", but if you rank all the teams by their SV%, then rank them by their Points%, let's call the difference "Coaching Boost".

TEAM	SVPCT	SV% RK	POINTS%	POINTS% RK	CBOOST	CB RK
Pittsburgh	0.903	24	0.599	10	14	1
Vegas	0.910	15	0.678	4	11	2
Washington	0.909	18	0.616	7	11	2
Carolina	0.893	31	0.507	21	10	4
Minnesota	0.910	15	0.607	8	7	5
Philadelphia	0.905	21	0.579	14	7	5
Tampa Bay	0.915	6	0.714	2	4	7
Boston	0.913	7	0.706	3	4	7
NY Islanders	0.902	25	0.507	21	4	7
Edmonton	0.899	29	0.464	25	4	7
San Jose	0.911	11	0.607	8	3	11
New Jersey	0.907	20	0.571	17	3	11
Ottawa	0.899	29	0.442	28	1	13
Nashville	0.924	1	0.725	1	0	14
Colorado	0.911	11	0.594	11	0	14
Winnipeg	0.918	4	0.657	5	-1	16
Toronto	0.916	5	0.636	6	-1	16
Dallas	0.912	10	0.585	12	-2	18
Vancouver	0.901	27	0.415	29	-2	18
Montreal	0.904	23	0.457	26	-3	20
Arizona	0.901	27	0.413	30	-3	20
Florida	0.910	15	0.560	20	-5	22
Detroit	0.905	21	0.457	26	-5	22
Chicago	0.909	18	0.486	24	-6	24
Buffalo	0.902	25	0.406	31	-6	24
Calgary	0.911	11	0.563	19	-8	26
Los Angeles	0.921	3	0.586	12	-9	27
St. Louis	0.913	7	0.572	16	-9	27
Columbus	0.913	7	0.564	18	-11	29
NY Rangers	0.911	11	0.500	23	-12	30
Anaheim	0.922	2	0.577	15	-13	31
Average	0.909		0.560		-0.419

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

There you go: Maurice is about average...right along with Mike Babcock?! Oh well, I did say it was back-of-the-napkin.

Randy Carlyle is terrible. Vignault as well. Suck it, Torts!

Bill Peters actually looks pretty good here, considering the ECHL goaltending he's been getting. Sullivan in Pittsburgh and Gallant in Vegas. Trotz in Washington. Our old, corpulent friend Boudreau in Minnesota seems to be squeezing all he can out of them.

 

[surixon]

The Jets are currently ranked 4th in team SV% (.918) and they're 5th in the league in Points%. About where they should be, if you weight SV% as being a big factor in these things.
Vegas is actually ranked 15th in team SV% (.910) and they're 4th in the league in Points%.
The Penguins are 24th in team SV% (a Pavelecian .903!) and they're 10th in the league in Points%.

Very back-of-the-napkin "analytics", but if you rank all the teams by their SV%, then rank them by their Points%, let's call the difference "Coaching Boost".

TEAM	SVPCT	SV% RK	POINTS%	POINTS% RK	CBOOST	CB RK
Pittsburgh	0.903	24	0.599	10	14	1
Vegas	0.910	15	0.678	4	11	2
Washington	0.909	18	0.616	7	11	2
Carolina	0.893	31	0.507	21	10	4
Minnesota	0.910	15	0.607	8	7	5
Philadelphia	0.905	21	0.579	14	7	5
Tampa Bay	0.915	6	0.714	2	4	7
Boston	0.913	7	0.706	3	4	7
NY Islanders	0.902	25	0.507	21	4	7
Edmonton	0.899	29	0.464	25	4	7
San Jose	0.911	11	0.607	8	3	11
New Jersey	0.907	20	0.571	17	3	11
Ottawa	0.899	29	0.442	28	1	13
Nashville	0.924	1	0.725	1	0	14
Colorado	0.911	11	0.594	11	0	14
Winnipeg	0.918	4	0.657	5	-1	16
Toronto	0.916	5	0.636	6	-1	16
Dallas	0.912	10	0.585	12	-2	18
Vancouver	0.901	27	0.415	29	-2	18
Montreal	0.904	23	0.457	26	-3	20
Arizona	0.901	27	0.413	30	-3	20
Florida	0.910	15	0.560	20	-5	22
Detroit	0.905	21	0.457	26	-5	22
Chicago	0.909	18	0.486	24	-6	24
Buffalo	0.902	25	0.406	31	-6	24
Calgary	0.911	11	0.563	19	-8	26
Los Angeles	0.921	3	0.586	12	-9	27
St. Louis	0.913	7	0.572	16	-9	27
Columbus	0.913	7	0.564	18	-11	29
NY Rangers	0.911	11	0.500	23	-12	30
Anaheim	0.922	2	0.577	15	-13	31
Average	0.909		0.560		-0.419

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

There you go: Maurice is about average...right along with Mike Babcock?! Oh well, I did say it was back-of-the-napkin.

Randy Carlyle is terrible. Vignault as well. Suck it, Torts!

Bill Peters actually looks pretty good here, considering the ECHL goaltending he's been getting. Sullivan in Pittsburgh and Gallant in Vegas. Trotz in Washington. Our old, corpulent friend Boudreau in Minnesota seems to be squeezing all he can out of them.

Interesting, I could only find 5 on 5 save percentage and they ranked 13th. They must be killing it in short handed and other ES situations.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

It's pretty well known.

Does Paul Maurice make his goalies worse than they actually are? - Sportsnet.ca

It seems a little disingenuous to say that if a coach had worse goaltending the team would be worse and that's out of the coach's control, while disregarding the opposite.

I think it's pretty well known that coaches have virtually nothing to do with their goaltenders performance.

There isn't a goalie in the NHL making substantial changes to his game during a season.

Since teams aren't permitted to train their goaltenders in the off season, the crux falls upon the player himself to improve.

Hellebuyck owes all his success to himself & no one else other than the company he hired out of his own pocket.

Hellebuyck's new training routine key to early success with Jets

The only way coaches can influence a goaltenders performance is via defensive tactics.

In the Jets case they are the best in the league at limiting zone entry & once a team does enter, the teams tactics turn to limiting all opportunities to the perimeter.

 

[Weezeric]

I think it's pretty well known that coaches have virtually nothing to do with their goaltenders performance.

There isn't a goalie in the NHL making substantial changes to his game during a season.

Since teams aren't permitted to train their goaltenders in the off season, the crux falls upon the player himself to improve.

Hellebuyck owes all his success to himself & no one else other than the company he hired out of his own pocket.

Hellebuyck's new training routine key to early success with Jets

The only way coaches can influence a goaltenders performance is via defensive tactics.

In the Jets case they are the best in the league at limiting zone entry & once a team does enter, the teams tactics turn to limiting all opportunities to the perimeter.

That's kind of my point. Maurice's goaltenders have performed so badly that some have questioned whether it's his fault, even though that's obviously not the case.

If he had received league average goaltending even half of the seasons he's coached then the whole "worst coach ever" meme wouldn't exist.

 

[Weezeric]

Sorry, but I don't get your response.

What I said: If you look only at Maurice's record, he is a below average coach (he has over 100 more losses than wins). But I consider him to be an about average coach (which is better than his record of below average) because I believe that he had below average roster/goaltending more often than not. So I don't see how I am 'disregarding the opposite'.

Sorry, I guess that makes sense.

It's just the whole looking at where the jets would be with bad goaltending this year is basically useless.

I'm of the opinion that there is very little difference between the "worst" coach in the league and the "best".

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Interesting idea - you may be right. And if so, you probably agree with my assessment that Maurice is an average coach (one of the nearly = around the league) but with a lot of experience. Unless you think that he is one of the few exceptions at the bottom (probably not), or one of the exceptions at the very top (lololololololol).

Yup. Right in the mushy middle somewhere.

 

[Ducky10]

Closing this thread and moving posts to other coaching thread, this one is two years old.