Alive and kicking STILL.. OIE!!

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Pepper

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Aug 30, 2004
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Joeri Loonen said:
First of all, the 50% luxury tax-issue is only applicable 1 -3 nations. There are NHL-players in over 10-nations now. So do not blow this out of proportion. Only a minority will 'suffer' from this, and even a percentage of those can get around it due to some loopholes and good legal advise.

It's a fact both in Finland and Sweden which are the main importers of NHL-talent along with Switzerland and Russia.

Joeri Loonen said:
Secondly. Salaries in Europe are not topped at 300k. In Russia for example, they reach the million-mark ($us) or even higher. And this doens't involve just a single team (as was being mentioned).

There are only few players outside Russia who are making more than $300K, AFAIK none in Finland or Sweden.

Joeri Loonen said:
Thirdly. Can someone tell me where it is stated that all players pay their own insurance? Since I know different.

Again, that's the case atleast in Finland and Sweden. If the team pays your insurance you get smaller salary and vice versa.

Joeri Loonen said:
Furthermore, it was stated that many North-Americans do not fancy playing in Europe at all. Then I wonder, why are they coming over? According to the reports here, it's not for the money..and not for the game.. Then what is it? They can stay in shape at home as well, and it's not like they would die from starvation either. To me it sounds a bit contradicting. But perhaps I'm missing something here. .

Look at the number of NHLers who have bailed out of their European teams. The list is long.
 

Joeri Loonen

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Mar 1, 2002
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Da Game said:
That was very kind of you Joeri. More than I expected in terms of salary.

But I'm sure Icon will have something to add. :)

I've got no stake to claim here. Just wanted to sort out some facts and fictions here.

Be aware that the overall salary for NHL-lockout player in Europe could be around $300k or even lower. There are several ones skating for free, whilst only a few strike up the big money.

Regards,

Joeri Loonen
Admin: http://www.eurohockey.net
 

Lanny MacDonald*

Guest
Da Game said:
That was very kind of you Joeri. More than I expected in terms of salary.

But I'm sure Icon will have something to add. :)

Doesn't mention salary at all beyond the exceptions. No backup there at all. Keep searching.
 

Da Game

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Jan 27, 2005
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The Iconoclast said:
Ah, so now you're a New York lawyer from England who has be infront of Judge Ito in California. This is getting better and better.

Please, treat this as a case and do your "due justice" and make me look silly. Trust me pal, the only one here looking silly is you.

:lol

EDIT: Looked up "bottling" and "bottled" in several english slang dictionaries and that term doesn't exist.

http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/b.htm


Maybe you're slow. So I'll do it this way.

I live in New York, and also live in England. :)

I've never seen Judge Ito in person. The Judge Ito thing was just a JOKE. (I'm sure you can look up Joke in the dictionary)

And like I said before. This isn't a COURT ROOM, thus, only a MESSAGE BOARD.

BTW, the owner of eurohockey, the site that you used to try to battle me with, has kindly come on here, and given you facts that lean towards more side.

Now stop acting all BOTTLED UP, and move on. :)
 

Lanny MacDonald*

Guest
Joeri Loonen said:
I've got no stake to claim here. Just wanted to sort out some facts and fictions here.

Be aware that the overall salary for NHL-lockout player in Europe could be around $300k or even lower. There are several ones skating for free, whilst only a few strike up the big money.

Regards,

Joeri Loonen
Admin: http://www.eurohockey.net

Can you provide some links that would establish these levels. We're talking averages, not exceptions. I have it from another site, someone who works in the Finish league, that states the average salaries are well below that level and are in the 10's of thousands not 100's of thousands of dollars. The elite may get the $300,000 salary in Europe, but they are also making 15 to 20 times that in North America. Can you confirm this please with linkage.
 

Da Game

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Jan 27, 2005
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The Iconoclast said:
Doesn't mention salary at all beyond the exceptions. No backup there at all. Keep searching.


:lol Where's the dictionary when you need it.

It must suck when the owner of the site, that you used to back up your opinion with, comes on here, and leans towards my side.

I rest my case.

As you said...Keep searching. :)
 

Joeri Loonen

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Mar 1, 2002
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Pepper said:
It's a fact both in Finland and Sweden which are the main importers of NHL-talent along with Switzerland and Russia..

Finland: 31
Czech Republic: 56
Russia: 75
Germany: 20
Sweden: 75
Switzerland: 26


Yes, it is the case in Finland and Sweden, as you stated. Then again, as I said, it will only actively hurt a smaller group of the players involved. And the way you wrote it down I had the feeling you were generalising all NHL Lock-out players here. There wasn't made a remark it was only viable to players playing in Finland and Sweden (just over a 100)


Pepper said:
There are only few players outside Russia who are making more than $300K, AFAIK none in Finland or Sweden.

See my previous posting. Agreed. But it was said earlier that 300k was the max. paid. Only wanted to counter that one.



Pepper said:
Again, that's the case atleast in Finland and Sweden. If the team pays your insurance you get smaller salary and vice versa.

Again..this wasn't stated (that it (the comment) solely involved players playing in only Sweden and Finland). I don't want to nitpick here but as you guys are already starting word games and lawyer-stuff, than I think this fact shouldn't be left unmentioned.

Pepper said:
Look at the number of NHLers who have bailed out of their European teams. The list is long.

Not that long compared to the list that came over to Europe. Both lists are still growing as we speak. For sure it's not up to expectations for some, whilst for others it will surpass them. Yet I am still waiting on the answer on my initial question. If the money's so bad, and the gameplay is not fancies, then why do they come over?

Regards,

Joeri Loonen
Admin: http://www.eurohockey.net
 
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Lanny MacDonald*

Guest
Da Game said:
BTW, the owner of eurohockey, the site that you used to try to battle me with, has kindly come on here, and given you facts that lean towards more side.

Now stop acting all BOTTLED UP, and move on. :)

Weren't you dissing eurohockey.net earlier? Now they're your best buddies? Which is it? They give an opinion earlier and is irrelevant because it doesn't work in your favor, but now he comes on and gives his non-commital opinion and they're great and experts on the matter? You're a piece of work buddy.
 

Joeri Loonen

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Mar 1, 2002
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The Iconoclast said:
Can you provide some links that would establish these levels. We're talking averages, not exceptions. I have it from another site, someone who works in the Finish league, that states the average salaries are well below that level and are in the 10's of thousands not 100's of thousands of dollars. The elite may get the $300,000 salary in Europe, but they are also making 15 to 20 times that in North America. Can you confirm this please with linkage.

Contrary to North-America, salaries are not made public in (most of) Europe. Therefore I could never come up with something official or I'd have to break journalism-rules, which I'm not going to.

All I wanted to point with the Russia-link, was that top salaries exceed the $300k. The average is probably below it, although one has to keep in mind there's official salary and the common 'money under the table'.

Regards,

Joeri Loonen
Admin: http://www.eurohockey.net
 
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Da Game

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Jan 27, 2005
154
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The Iconoclast said:
Weren't you dissing eurohockey.net earlier? Now they're your best buddies? Which is it? They give an opinion earlier and is irrelevant because it doesn't work in your favor, but now he comes on and gives his non-commital opinion and they're great and experts on the matter? You're a piece of work buddy.

The Dictionary,

I said that eurohockey link was more of a fan's view of the current salary dealings in Euorpe, and I asked you kindly to please provide me with a more official link.

But the owner of the site was kind enough to log into this site, and give a detailed post on the matter, leaning towards my opinion.

:D
 

Lanny MacDonald*

Guest
Da Game said:
:lol Where's the dictionary when you need it.

It must suck when the owner of the site, that you used to back up your opinion with, comes on here, and leans towards my side.

I rest my case.

As you said...Keep searching. :)

Not a very good case. Where is the definitive proof in this statement?

"Be aware that the overall salary for NHL-lockout player in Europe could be around $300k or even lower. There are several ones skating for free, whilst only a few strike up the big money."

No where does he state what the average is. He doesn't confirm that $300K is correct. In fact he states it could be lower. He does state that several are skating for free and only a few have made big money. Care to comment on Alfredsson making $6K a month, not even covering his insurance?

I'm still waiting for your proof. I've given you two links, and you've given me a guy that has said nothing other than he doesn't know and does not want to get in the middle of the debate. You aren't doing very well counselor.
 

Joeri Loonen

Registered User
Mar 1, 2002
80
0
www.eurohockey.net
Da Game said:
The Dictionary,

I said that eurohockey link was more of a fan's view of the current salary dealings in Euorpe, and I asked you kindly to please provide me with a more official link.

But the owner of the site was kind enough to log into this site, and give a detailed post on the matter, leaning towards my opinion.

:D

I thank you for both welcoming my contributions here, but let's focus on the topic instead of making it a JL-thread. Much appreciated.

All I wanted to do was get some facts straightened out. Not choose camps or pick on people.


Final note: The playing in Europe section has not been written by 'fans' but by an actrive player who has played up to AHL in North-America and is currently playing over in Europe.

Joeri Loonen
Admin: http://www.eurohockey.net
 

Munchausen

Guest
Joeri Loonen said:
Not that long compared to the list that came over to Europe. Both lists are still growing as we speak. For sure it's not up to expectations for some, whilst for others it will surpass them. Yet I am still waiting on the answer on my initial question. If the money's so bad, and the gameplay is not fancies, then why do they come over?

Because they need to play. As simple as that. It's not true they can keep their game shape by training in a gym for a year. They might stay physically fit that way, but they lose their timing and game touch. You just watch the guys that will have chosen to stay out of the game (outside of superstars) for one whole year. They'll be pretty rusty when the NHL resumes.

Also, I think we can also assume it's because they want to play. Hockey is their life, that's all they often can or want to do. So it's understandable that if, talking about the NA players here, can't find a job in a competitive league (AHL) in NA, they will head over to Europe in order to keep playing, even if it's not up to their standards, whether it be caliber, lifestyle or money.
 

Lanny MacDonald*

Guest
Da Game said:
The Dictionary,

I said that eurohockey link was more of a fan's view of the current salary dealings in Euorpe, and I asked you kindly to please provide me with a more official link.

But the owner of the site was kind enough to log into this site, and give a detailed post on the matter, leaning towards my opinion.

:D

And in cross examination the owner gave us the facts.

"All I wanted to point with the Russia-link, was that top salaries exceed the $300k. The average is probably below it."

Judge Ito wouldn't be looking to favorably at your case counselor. You're not much of a lawyer if this is any indication.

:shakehead
 

Da Game

Registered User
Jan 27, 2005
154
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On an Island
The Iconoclast said:
Not a very good case. Where is the definitive proof in this statement?

"Be aware that the overall salary for NHL-lockout player in Europe could be around $300k or even lower. There are several ones skating for free, whilst only a few strike up the big money."

No where does he state what the average is. He doesn't confirm that $300K is correct. In fact he states it could be lower. He does state that several are skating for free and only a few have made big money. Care to comment on Alfredsson making $6K a month, not even covering his insurance?

I'm still waiting for your proof. I've given you two links, and you've given me a guy that has said nothing other than he doesn't know and does not want to get in the middle of the debate. You aren't doing very well counselor.


The whole entire time while you were trying your hardest to flame me in a public forum, rather than to have a friendly debate, I told you that I was watching a TV SHOW about it, and the show provided information about salaries in the league, and had some of the Owners on it.

The first link you provided me to back your posts, back fired on you.

Now your on the defense. I'm sure you'll come back with more flames and other Pre-K stuff to shout about.

But being a man of my word, I will indeed try to locate a link to the show, and get the text transcript.
 

Lanny MacDonald*

Guest
Joeri Loonen said:
I thank you for both welcoming my contributions here, but let's focus on the topic instead of making it a JL-thread. Much appreciated.

All I wanted to do was get some facts straightened out. Not choose camps or pick on people.


Final note: The playing in Europe section has not been written by 'fans' but by an actrive player who has played up to AHL in North-America and is currently playing over in Europe.

Joeri Loonen
Admin: http://www.eurohockey.net

Thanks for your comments Joeri. Appeciate the input either way.
 

Da Game

Registered User
Jan 27, 2005
154
0
On an Island
The Iconoclast said:
And in cross examination the owner gave us the facts.

"All I wanted to point with the Russia-link, was that top salaries exceed the $300k. The average is probably below it."

Judge Ito wouldn't be looking to favorably at your case counselor. You're not much of a lawyer if this is any indication.

:shakehead


And Judge Ito, as I informed the court earlier in this thread, I said the "average" salary in Russia is 300K, when you balance out all the salaries in the league.

:lol
 

Joeri Loonen

Registered User
Mar 1, 2002
80
0
www.eurohockey.net
Munchausen said:
Because they need to play. As simple as that. It's not true they can keep their game shape by training in a gym for a year. They might stay physically fit that way, but they lose their timing and game touch. You just watch the guys that will have chosen to stay out of the game (outside of superstars) for one whole year. They'll be pretty rusty when the NHL resumes.

Also, I think we can also assume it's because they want to play. Hockey is their life, that's all they often can or want to do. So it's understandable that if, talking about the NA players here, can't find a job in a competitive league (AHL) in NA, they will head over to Europe in order to keep playing, even if it's not up to their standards, whether it be caliber, lifestyle or money.

Fair enough..and finally an argumented answer.

To sum it up. It might not be up to their standards all the time, but we shouldn't feel sorry for them either I believe. No one forces them to cross the pond. And as said before, they would not die from starvation, by not playing. It's an unfortunate matter going on in which there is no one coming out as winners as of yet. Perhaps the salary-cap idea will be stopped, but that doesn't mean this whole issue will win a beauty contest. Both sides will have their fair share of damage.

Regards,

Joeri Loonen
Admin: http://www.eurohockey.net
 

Da Game

Registered User
Jan 27, 2005
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Joeri Loonen said:
Fair enough..and finally an argumented answer.

To sum it up. It might not be up to their standards all the time, but we shouldn't feel sorry for them either I believe. No one forces them to cross the pond. And as said before, they would not die from starvation, by not playing. It's an unfortunate matter going on in which there is no one coming out as winners as of yet. Perhaps the salary-cap idea will be stopped, but that doesn't mean this whole issue will win a beauty contest. Both sides will have their fair share of damage.

Regards,

Joeri Loonen
Admin: http://www.eurohockey.net

I agree.

I said this before. The biggest loser in of all this, is the fan.
 

Lanny MacDonald*

Guest
Da Game said:
The whole entire time while you were trying your hardest to flame me in a public forum, rather than to have a friendly debate, I told you that I was watching a TV SHOW about it, and the show provided information about salaries in the league, and had some of the Owners on it.

The first link you provided me to back your posts, back fired on you.

Now your on the defense. I'm sure you'll come back with more flames and other Pre-K stuff to shout about.

But being a man of my word, I will indeed try to locate a link to the show, and get the text transcript.

Back fired? The owner of the site came on and blew your number out of the water, saying the average was likely less than that number. If that is back firing I'll take it. Plus, I have provided a follow up like that shows the elite NHL players not making what you suggest, and you have provided nothing. Be a man of your word and find the transcript. Hell, I'll help you. What was the name of the show, what channel it was on, and when did you see it (a month will do)?
 

Da Game

Registered User
Jan 27, 2005
154
0
On an Island
The Iconoclast said:
Back fired? The owner of the site came on and blew your number out of the water, saying the average was likely less than that number. If that is back firing I'll take it. Plus, I have provided a follow up like that shows the elite NHL players not making what you suggest, and you have provided nothing. Be a man of your word and find the transcript. Hell, I'll help you. What was the name of the show, what channel it was on, and when did you see it (a month will do)?


Again,

If you balance the salaries out, it's an average salary of 300k or more, like I stated earlier.

And I believe the show was on ESPN. Forgot the name of the program. Very late at night. Maybe 3 weeks back.
 

Chayos

Registered User
Mar 6, 2003
4,922
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Winnipeg
Da Game said:
For example, Do you even know who some of the Owners are over in the RSL? Most of the Owners in the RSL have money growing out of trees. Most of them are in the Oil industry. One of the owners said that he's losing a ton of money, but he doesn't care at all cause he wants to win a championship for his city.

The players that have left Europe, left cause they weren't bottled, like they are in the NHL.

(Again, you might have missed it, but I am not siding with either side)

If that is true its just anotehr example of the NHl players are just killing other league worldwide now then.
 

novak

Registered User
Mar 24, 2004
88
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This isn't a COURT ROOM, thus, only a MESSAGE BOARD.

Da game... oh man. You posted so much illogical crap in this thread. The above is just an example... This isn't a court room, thus proving it is a message board?
 

Pepper

Registered User
Aug 30, 2004
14,693
269
Joeri Loonen said:
See my previous posting. Agreed. But it was said earlier that 300k was the max. paid. Only wanted to counter that one.

We have to keep Russia & rest of Europe apart because they are so different. To north-americans they are different concepts anyway, they consider Russia a different entity altogether.

Joeri Loonen said:
Again..this wasn't stated (that it (the comment) solely involved players playing in only Sweden and Finland). I don't want to nitpick here but as you guys are already starting word games and lawyer-stuff, than I think this fact shouldn't be left unmentioned..

I'm pretty certain the taxes in Germany would be quite high as well, Switzerland is the only relatively tax-free country in Europe (Canal Islands and Monaco excluded). The insurances are pretty much the same everywhere in Europe and they are included in the same 'overall' compensation the player gets while playing here.

Joeri Loonen said:
If the money's so bad, and the gameplay is not fancies, then why do they come over?

Money is not bad, it's still fraction of the money compared to NHL.

They come here to keep in shape and to keep in touch with the game, some treat it as an extended vacation and some come here to prove a point to owners. Motives are different with each player.
 
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