Player Discussion Alex Galchenyuk: Time to loosen the restraints?

[Sorinth]

But not similar numbers.....at center.

They also don't have similar supporting players. Galchenyuk had Markov/Subban transitioning the puck for him. Drouin has Alzner/Weber.

I'd also point out their numbers at center are actually similar, Galchenyuk was a 60 point player at center, Drouin is on pace for 53. To me those are similar enough given the margin of error due to the small sample size.

 

[OldCraig71]

There is simply no room for Alex at center with the log jam of talent that we currently have at the position.

 

[Habs178]

I suppose small sample sizes aren't a thing anymore

Well if you want to look at both....who both have small sample sizes.....then Galchy has better numbers.

 

[G0bias]

I'm not calling you out specifically, but people who defended Therrin putting Galchenyuk at wing all those times posted exactly like you did. They point out a specific thing in his game (Normally his shot) and use that as the reason moving him to wing was the right call. It was dumb reasoning then and it's dumb now.

The same goes for the defensive ability. It never made sense to use that as a reason for Galchneyuk to not be played at center. He was never going to get better defensively playing the wing so if the goal is to develop him to be a top center then you have to bite the bullet and live with the mistakes and try and teach him to be better. It's was true for Galchenyuk and it's true for Drouin. We need to give Drouin the chance to make mistakes and to learn from them, and that takes lots of time.

That's fine, except I didn't even say it was the reason. Perhaps it was unclear the way I wrote it and you interpreted it that way but that's not how I see the situation. There's obviously more to it than just that - something those against Galchenyuk at center didn't seem to bother with.

I've already explained my stance on the matter before, I'm not going to list all the reasons in every post where I disagree he's showed what it takes.
Hell a few posts above I even said I haven't come to a conclusion yet and willing to give him more time as long as by the end of it the reverse will be tried.

 

[417]

I'm not suggesting he isn't playing well, merely that he's in the wrong position. For all the over the top criticism of Galchenyuk's defensive game, Drouin is even less effective.

When your best players can't even be positioned to succeed, how in the world can the team as a group? It's notoriously poor management.

Not saying this is the case with you...but I get a feeling the general resentment fans feel towards management and their treatment of Galchenyuk, tends to bleed into evaluations of Drouin.

I wouldn't agree that he's less effective, I've seen Drouin do some impressive things as a center defensively, but he's also done some bad things...

Alot like what we saw from 27 as a center...

In both cases, I think both players have earned, or in 27's case, earned, an extended look.

Is he perfect?

Far from it...but I've seen enough to want to continue the experiment, especially in lieu of a lack of more appealing options.

I'd like to make Drouin's icetime increased I'd anything... He's got way too many games in the 13-14-15 mins range.

Same goes for Galchenyuk...

 

[admiralcadillac]

Well if you want to look at both....who both have small sample sizes.....then Galchy has better numbers.

You completely missed the point of what I was saying

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

What's lame is that I asked for specifics and you respond with the vague "I don't see it" and then talk about mistakes management has made which are irrelevant to whether Drouin is or can be a center.

It gives the impression that you are just against everything management does simply because it was their idea. Bergevin can't be fired fast enough, but that doesn't mean it's a mistake to try and develop Drouin as a center.

My position on this hasn't changed. As I said at the beginning of the year, it's not something I'd do. I don't think it's a good idea. But it's what we've decided to do. So fine, give him the shot and hope that he improves. As I said at the start, it would be great if it works out and I hope it does. I'd love to be wrong here but it's not what I would've done. I think both players would be better served with their positions flipped on the same line.

I don't think that's an unreasonable position to take.

If you want to hear something positive I will say this: At least this time it's not a player like Desharnais with inferior talent who's being put there. At least Drouin has first line skills...

 

[groovejuice]

Not saying this is the case with you...but I get a feeling the general resentment fans feel towards management and their treatment of Galchenyuk, tends to bleed into evaluations of Drouin.

I wouldn't agree that he's less effective, I've seen Drouin do some impressive things as a center defensively, but he's also done some bad things...

Alot like what we saw from 27 as a center...

In both cases, I think both players have earned, or in 27's case, earned, an extended look.

Is he perfect?

Far from it...but I've seen enough to want to continue the experiment, especially in lieu of a lack of more appealing options.

I'd like to make Drouin's icetime increased I'd anything... He's got way too many games in the 13-14-15 mins range.

Same goes for Galchenyuk...

Neither are perfect, especially defensively. Drouin can chase down and check players more effectively because of his speed. Galchenyuk has more success along the boards. They both need more coaching and less reluctancy.

 

[Habit11]

Center or not, AG and Drouin should be playing 19+ mins a night. Enough with the kid gloves and the preference given to the likes of Plekanec/Danault etc. The approach of spreading out the minutes like all players are equal on this team has failed, repeatedly. The approach of favoring defensive minded/inept offensive players has also failed, repeatedly. But who am I to argue years and years of this team having the same approach from Martin to Therrien to Julien? You can’t win like the Devils did with Brodeur, those days are long, long gone. The goaltending position is as much a level playing field as the other positions at this point, so being afraid to turn your offence players loose at this point is ignoring reality.

 

[Kriss E]

I don't agree with this...

I think Drouin has shown some good (and bad) things as a center, but to suggest he can't play as a center is faulty logic IMO...or some weird hang up with Galchenyuk.

He's not even 30 games into his first true experience as a center, he's learning on the job, I think it's pretty harsh to say he can't do it now. The results so far, are a lot like Galchenyuk's try out as a center...a mixed bag...and an experience that needs to continue so both players can gain more experience playing the position.

Truth is, both Drouin AND Galchenyuk should be centering the top 2 lines on this team.

I don't think he has shown much of anything at center for him to be considered one. If Galchenyuk isn't good enough to be one, then neither is Drouin.
But I believe in players being used in their natural position. Crazy me.

Can't have two defensively unreliable centers, Julien would have to use Drouin-Galch in a similar manner. Can't do that. Same reason why DD-Galch were rarely used as the two centers, and why many suggested DD needed to GTFO already.

But yes, Drouin is young, I suppose crazier things have happened than for a young player to adapt at a new position. We will see, but I haven't been impressed with his play there.

 

[Price is Wright]

Drouin played at least 10 games last season as a centre in Tampa. He was pretty much a failure in the position and rarely finished a game down the middle.

 

[Kriss E]

Not saying this is the case with you...but I get a feeling the general resentment fans feel towards management and their treatment of Galchenyuk, tends to bleed into evaluations of Drouin.

You seem to think the disagreement people have with decisions is because of some resentment towards management. It's the other way around man. People have an issue with management because they disagree with a lot of their decisions.
Drouin is not impressing anyone at center, and he played most of his time on the wing. So people think he should be used there. It's pretty simple and it has nothing to do with some resentment towards management.
Heck, you were telling me after the trade how people are going to be so surprised by this kid, to just wait and see, that he's the real deal. Well, maybe he would have been on the wing, with a better center.
But as it stands, he is what I thought he'd be. Quite a skilled player but not someone that leads your offense, that will cap out at about a 60pt mark potential.
Now, as you said, he's still just 22, so we can see later, but I don't see him becoming that top centerman.

 

[Sorinth]

You seem to think the disagreement people have with decisions is because of some resentment towards management. It's the other way around man. People have an issue with management because they disagree with a lot of their decisions.
Drouin is not impressing anyone at center, and he played most of his time on the wing. So people think he should be used there. It's pretty simple and it has nothing to do with some resentment towards management.

Isn't that the exact same reasoning used to justify moving Galchenyuk to wing?

 

[Price is Wright]

Isn't that the exact same reasoning used to justify moving Galchenyuk to wing?

Galchenyuk was drafted as a centre, played as a LW for two years, then moved to centre for... 10 games, then moved back to wing, then moved back to centre, then wing, then centre where he ripped it up with Pacioretty, then wing the next season, then injured, then centre, then wing, then fourth line wing, then the next season at fourth line wing, where he's moved up to the top six (sometimes) wing and never allowed at centre again.

Drouin, who Habs got this season, is centre and nothing else.

 

[Sorinth]

Drouin played at least 10 games last season as a centre in Tampa. He was pretty much a failure in the position and rarely finished a game down the middle.

He played 5 games in 8 nights in Tampa. And he put up 3 points and was a +1 not what I would call a failure.

 

[Price is Wright]

He played 5 games in 8 nights in Tampa. And he put up 3 points and was a +1 not what I would call a failure.

Go ask a Tampa Bay Lightning fan how he did instead of basic stat gazing.

 

[LaP]

He played 5 games in 8 nights in Tampa. And he put up 3 points and was a +1 not what I would call a failure.

AG has like 60 points in 80 games as a center and is a + player at this position.

 

[Runner77]

I'm not suggesting he isn't playing well, merely that he's in the wrong position. For all the over the top criticism of Galchenyuk's defensive game, Drouin is even less effective.

When your best players can't even be positioned to succeed, how in the world can the team as a group? It's notoriously poor management.

Poor and unsustainable player deployment impacts upon trade value -- even worse if it comes from management. There's an eerie self-fulfilling prophecy at work.

 

[Kriss E]

Isn't that the exact same reasoning used to justify moving Galchenyuk to wing?

Hmm no, not really.
Galchenyuk was drafted as a centerman, the GM reconfirmed that at the interview table once he drafted the kid.
He played about one year I believe on the wing to form a great trio.
When we drafted him, we had DD, Eller, Plek. Made sense for us to use him on the wing during his rookie year.
By year 2, DD should have been let go, and management should have been targeting specific wingers to build around Galch at center.

 

[Sorinth]

AG has like 60 points in 80 games as a center and is a + player at this position.

He's played much more then 80 games as center. The last two years alone he played 143 games and had 100 points in them.

And personally I don't think Galchenyuk was a failure at center.

 

[Price is Wright]

He's played much more then 80 games as center. The last two years alone he played 143 games and had 100 points in them.

And personally I don't think Galchenyuk was a failure at center.

The real problem is that Galchenyuk should be an established 1C so we have time and patience to develop Drouin into a 2C by depth.

Instead Drouin is thrust into an unfair situation as 1C while Galchenyuk is left on the wing where he's not best suited.

 

[Sorinth]

Hmm no, not really.
Galchenyuk was drafted as a centerman, the GM reconfirmed that at the interview table once he drafted the kid.
He played about one year I believe on the wing to form a great trio.
When we drafted him, we had DD, Eller, Plek. Made sense for us to use him on the wing during his rookie year.
By year 2, DD should have been let go, and management should have been targeting specific wingers to build around Galch at center.

Galchenyuk should have been played at center since day 1. But none of what you've said is really relevant to the point I made. Therrien and company used the fact that Galchenyuk had mostly played wing to justify moving him to wing whenever he struggled at center. You're doing the same with Drouin now.

 

[groovejuice]

Poor and unsustainable player deployment impacts upon trade value -- even worse if it comes from management. There's an eerie self-fulfilling prophecy at work.

Exactly right. Complaints, innuendo and outright criticism from management that the players are not responding to the "challenges" that they themselves created.

It's pathetically perverse, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Sorinth]

The real problem is that Galchenyuk should be an established 1C so we have time and patience to develop Drouin into a 2C by depth.

Instead Drouin is thrust into an unfair situation as 1C while Galchenyuk is left on the wing where he's not best suited.

Agreed we've mismanaged everything. But we can't change the past, the way forward is to play both at center try to develop both their games so that next year we can have a more solid center lineup. Either that or trade, and I sure as hell don't trust Bergevin pulling that trigger.

 

[LaP]

He's played much more then 80 games as center. The last two years alone he played 143 games and had 100 points in them.

And personally I don't think Galchenyuk was a failure at center.

143 games the last 2 years? He played 61 games last year and the previous year he spent easily 30 games on the wing so that's around 110 games at the very most. My maths are off but so are yours.

BTW my point was just to say stats don't matter for AG so they should not matter for Drouin too. Statistically speaking AG clearly produced better while playing center than wing there's absolutely no questioning that. Is Drouin doing well on faceoffs and defensively? That's where the evaluation should be done. Like for AG.