Player Discussion Alain Vigneault Part VI

[GoAwayPanarin]

Not possible - when the team is flat it has to be AV's fault.

Yeah except besides game 5 against Ottawa in 2012, those are all horrible examples.

They were burned out against NJ and overmatched and undermanned against Boston in 2013 where they had to scratch and claw just to keep those games close (except game 2, and they werent flat for that one.)


Again these games were pretty recent, most of us remember how they played out.

 

[orland]

AV is good with public relations and laid back. He basically benefited from the post Torts year one relief which led to us to the cup finals. Very similar to 1978 (dating myself here) Yanks World Series run when crazy Billy Martin was fired and Bob Lemon took over. Lemon was never considered a good manager but just letting the players relax after being under such stress led to a legendary run. Kind of similar to the Rangers 2014 run. Unfortunately the Rangers seemed to regress every year after that under AV. AV is not known for any particular coaching talent (strategy, motivation, deployment, etc) just a likeable classy personna. But that doesn't work for me anymore and his inability to hold his favorites accountable in particular is galling. His veteran favored belief system is completely contrary to what is happening in all sports where young players are more prepared than ever, and ready to succeed earlier than ever. AV has really hurt this team and its development of young talent. Clendening might not be very good but he certainly would have been a better option than Staal as a right defenseman if he was given a chance to grow this year. At least he can get the puck out of his end.

Coaches have a limited shelf life in any event. Sticking with a failed AV going forward is really going to be painful.

 

[Thirty One]

Yeah except besides game 5 against Ottawa in 2012, those are all horrible examples.

They were burned out against NJ and overmatched and undermanned against Boston in 2013 where they had to scratch and claw just to keep those games close (except game 2, and they werent flat for that one.)


Again these games were pretty recent, most of us remember how they played out.

To me, burnt out and flat aren't mutually exlcusive. And Torts certainly had some responsibility in them being burnt out.

 

[YoSoyLalo]

yea inferno you made good points in all but you posted a minions gif, therefore invalidating your entire post

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

To me, burnt out and flat aren't mutually exlcusive. And Torts certainly had some responsibility in them being burnt out.

Thats fair.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

I wish there way to view stats by period over time.

It certainly SEEMS like the NYR have had really bad first periods in general the end of this season through the playoffs. Would be interesting to see if that was actually the case.

 

[Tawnos]

I wish there way to view stats by period over time.

It certainly SEEMS like the NYR have had really bad first periods in general the end of this season through the playoffs. Would be interesting to see if that was actually the case.

I don't think they were great in first periods all year long. The third period was really their best.

 

[stan the caddy]

The Rangers are a good team, not a great team. It's been that way for years. I defended Torts and I'll defend AV.

I hear people say how the Rangers should have beaten up on Ottawa and how much better the Rangers roster is. How exactly?

The fact that this team finished 4th in goals for during the regular season is pretty impressive.

 

[smoneil]

When so many people struggle to define what being "out-coached" exactly means, then yes, it is contestable.

Was Boucher out coaching AV when his team trailed almost every minute played from games 1-5?

The Rangers, as a team, from the coach on down, didn't execute at the end of games 1,2 and 5 and it ultimately lost them the series. So, unless you think Boucher's master plan was to play possum and then nail us at the very end of games, I don't subscribe to these ambiguous "outcoached" garbage as the sole or even main reason the Rangers lost.

BRB, people have been clear about how AV's arrogance has led to issues with this team. Adamantly sticking to man to man D even though it's clear that his roster isn't built for it? Shoveling minutes in key spots to players who routinely make foolish decisions? Playing offensive black holes late in games where the team needs to score? Trying to sit on a one goal lead for 20 (more than 20 at times) minutes?

He inherited a very good roster and has gotten less and less out of it with each year. Last year at this time, your story was that he needed another chance after a bit of roster overhaul. He had that chance. Gorton improved the forward depth and gave him a few more options on D as far as mobility. Same result. The only difference between last year and this year is that our late-season tank put the team on an easier path. Instead of getting annihilated by the Pens in round one, we got to get embarrassed by an inferior team in round 2.

At this point, I'm half convinced that AV could show up to the rink stark naked, and you'd start posting about how sharp his new Italian suit looked that day. What does he have to do for you to even acknowledge that he's not the right coach for this team? This is a legitimate question--What, in your mind, is a fire-able offense?

 

[BBKers]

BRB, people have been clear about how AV's arrogance has led to issues with this team. Adamantly sticking to man to man D even though it's clear that his roster isn't built for it? Shoveling minutes in key spots to players who routinely make foolish decisions? Playing offensive black holes late in games where the team needs to score? Trying to sit on a one goal lead for 20 (more than 20 at times) minutes?

He inherited a very good roster and has gotten less and less out of it with each year. Last year at this time, your story was that he needed another chance after a bit of roster overhaul. He had that chance. Gorton improved the forward depth and gave him a few more options on D as far as mobility. Same result. The only difference between last year and this year is that our late-season tank put the team on an easier path. Instead of getting annihilated by the Pens in round one, we got to get embarrassed by an inferior team in round 2.

At this point, I'm half convinced that AV could show up to the rink stark naked, and you'd start posting about how sharp his new Italian suit looked that day. What does he have to do for you to even acknowledge that he's not the right coach for this team? This is a legitimate question--What, in your mind, is a fire-able offense?

Hahaha
THIS. SO MUCH THIS

Well played Sir!

I do not think most of you know how AV is viewed amongst (some of) his players - but smirky arrogance and not hockey smarts top that list.

 

[Bluenote13]

This talk of arrogance always makes me laugh, you people realize that the owner has been Dolan and the GM for the last 17 years has been sather, you want to talk about arrogance?

From the top on down, isnt that what they say?

Anyway I think it's a pretty convenient and easy way to look at something you don't agree with - " how come he's not doing what I want him to do? Must be arrogance !"

I was never a big fan of this hiring I thought it was a lazy pick, before him was torts, who had recently gone to a Cup final, then it was av, who recently went to a Cup final. I said at the time need to hire someone up-and-coming knows what direction the game is headed, but old school slats was still in charge.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

This talk of arrogance always makes me laugh, you people realize that the owner has been Dolan and the GM for the last 17 years has been sather, you want to talk about arrogance?

That's relevant a couple of years ago with Sather. Mentioning Dolan in this context is completely irrelevant. Not that I'm defending JD. He's a *******. it's just that it's irrelevant here but you're presenting it as relevant. Unless you think Gorton keeps him because Gorton is also arrogant and arrogant people hire other arrogant people?

But if Gorton is arrogant he'd have to be on the exact same page as AV otherwise two extremely arrogant guys would be at odds constantly. With one being the others boss...

Anyway I think it's a pretty convenient and easy way to look at something you don't agree with - " how come he's not doing what I want him to do? Must be arrogance !"

That seems like an extremely poor summation of why people see arrogance with AV.

I was never a big fan of this hiring I thought it was a lazy pick, before him was torts, who had recently gone to a Cup final, then it was av, who recently went to a Cup final. I said at the time need to hire someone up-and-coming knows what direction the game is headed, but old school slats was still in charge.

Who would have fit that bill at the time?AV's shelf life is up and he's not being held accountable for his idiocy right now. That said, he wasn't a lazy hire. He was able to pull things out of the roster at the time that were needed and got them to a SCF.

You're making me defend AV and I HATE AV but that's how bad your revisionist argument is here. The guy can be fired any year. Sather hiring him back then is irrelevant now.

 

[Ail]

This talk of arrogance always makes me laugh, you people realize that the owner has been Dolan and the GM for the last 17 years has been sather, you want to talk about arrogance?

From the top on down, isnt that what they say?

Anyway I think it's a pretty convenient and easy way to look at something you don't agree with - " how come he's not doing what I want him to do? Must be arrogance !"

First, just because someone else in the organization is arrogant, it doesn't absolve the coach of being so. I'm not even sure how Dolan being a piece of **** is in any regard relevant. How often do the players deal with Dolan? How much of an impact does he have on the team, the players and most importantly, how much ice-time they get? Even if it is any, which I sincerely doubt, it's not anywhere near the level of that which AV impacts them. Second, BBKers has sources close to the team and has been right before on the pulse of the locker room and how players view coaches, so I think we're going to put more stock into what he says versus what you feel.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Your response made it seem like you didn't understand.

Please, been through this with you years ago and nothing's changed, put me on ignore if you can't respond to my 'terrible analysis'. I had you on ignore for years, decided to give you another try, that was a mistake.

I will never change the aspects of myself that you don't like. So yes that was a mistake.

One exception, I abide by the rules but I admit I come out swinging too often. I have lessened that just by forcing myself to take breaks from here but the content of what I say is also very carefully considered so I discuss the opinion more so than the poster. Even still, I can agree I am a ****in ***** too often. A ***** within the rules but a ***** nonetheless. I'm not alone in this, it's practically the default on this board but subconsciously that's likely my justification for being a ***** when I'm being a *****. I should get away from doing that. Still I'll always apologize for that (which probably means as much as this argument does unless I fix it completely) and try to tamper it down. So I'll try to change that one aspect of myself. I just fail on occasion.

I love responding to terrible analysis, why in god's name would I be here if it wasn't to argue and play devil's advocate...well besides getting a chance to curse at AV. You were right to put me on block. I'll never hold that against anyone. In fact that's the right move, that's the mature move. You can't stand someone's ********? Absolutely you should block them.

 

[Bluenote13]

That's been my experience with him. But I really doubt he would give out any information about his customers. Think about that one for a second.

It's ok, I give out that info gladly.

 

[Zil]

Hoping for news of his firing today.

 

[Bluenote13]

Hoping for news of his firing today.

Keep hope alive !

Seriously, by giving him the extension this season, they almost assured everyone that he'd be back next season.

Unless the players pull a 'torts' on him, he's coming back.

 

[RGY]

Still our coach?...damn.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

I wouldn't expect any news for at least a couple more weeks.

They're on vacation right now

I also do not have my hopes up that Gorton will do it

 

[Ori]

I doubt it happen @Zil as Jim said on the last Rangers podcast - u need to do something with your core players. It will be just another name of the list of fire coaches with this current core, because they can`t get it done properly or fail to execute at right moments in-games - either defensive or offensive - and part of the mentality of the team.

As much as I dislike some of AV decisions - u will probably not find one coach in NHL who are not making mistakes in this league. But I just speculate not even my own opinions about him.

I wish we could try another coach, but Jim has a point though - some core players need to go so we can start to plan the future.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

AV isn't going anywhere this year guys. They could have been swept in the 1st round and he'd still be back next year. Winning a round (despite losing it the way he did) probably bought him a longer leash.

 

[Irishguy42]

I don't want AV gone this offseason, but if it will make these boards readable again, then I'm okay if he gets canned ASAP.

 

[KingWantsCup]

I don't want AV gone this offseason, but if it will make these boards readable again, then I'm okay if he gets canned ASAP.

Irish, out of curiosity, what is your argument for keeping him?

 

[KingWantsCup]

Also is it just me, or is extending a coach's contract mid season not mind numbingly stupid?

 

[Bluenote13]

I don't want AV gone this offseason, but if it will make these boards readable again, then I'm okay if he gets canned ASAP.

Meh, been less than a week since elimination, it's always this bad when the wounds are still fresh.

Expansion draft and amateur draft will be here soon, the action should be fun around here again soon....