Player Discussion Alain Vigneault Part VI

[bl02]

theres also a whole thread blaming Marc Staal..Derek Stepan...Chris Kreider...the power play...and a ton of other things.

The coach made horrendous decisions...even you, who are seemingly his biggest supporter here, has stated repeatedly that you didnt understand some of the things he's doing.

Yes and thats a tremendous attribute . being able to admit when someone does something wrong even if you are a supporter of that coach or player.
unfortunately, it doesn't work the other way around with the ardent av haters.
When we won in 6 vs claude julien you could hear crickets on this thread. especially from the likes who picked montreal in 4 or 5 because av would be severely outcoached.

 

[Off Sides]

once you are in the playoffs you have as good a chance as any team out there.

https://www.sny.tv/rangers/news/vig...miller-mika-and-more-on-breakup-day/229669910

That is the type of thinking that drives me insane. More than half the team make the playoffs and they all have the same chance as each other?

 

[bl02]

it really really was. anyone wanna run the high danger shots faced in that series? id bet anything Henrik saw more high danger shots than price.

yes he probably did and would be safe to say anderson saw many many more than hank did in round 2.
valiquette said just before game 6 that anderson faced 2.5 times as many as hank did in the series.

 

[bl02]

https://www.sny.tv/rangers/news/vig...miller-mika-and-more-on-breakup-day/229669910

That is the type of thinking that drives me insane. More than half the team make the playoffs and they all have the same chance as each other?

well its possible that in less than a months time the nashville predators may be reiterating that exact statement
i know i know nashvilles d makes ours look like a joke. just saying tho. most of the year they did not look like a stanley cup potential champ.
one can only hope they win.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

It's just crazy to me that no one in the media is calling AV to task and letting him get away with **** excuse after **** excuse. Can't jeopardize those credentials.

 

[Inferno]

Yes and thats a tremendous attribute . being able to admit when someone does something wrong even if you are a supporter of that coach or player.
unfortunately, it doesn't work the other way around with the ardent av haters.
When we won in 6 vs claude julien you could hear crickets on this thread. especially from the likes who picked montreal in 4 or 5 because av would be severely outcoached.

I decided to do the math.

Henrik saw 41 high danger shots in the first round....41...the most in the entire playoffs of any team.

Carey Price saw 31.

Henrik allowed 4 of those 41...Price allowed 7 of his 31

If Henrik gave up the same number of HD goals that Price did thats and extra 7 goals against in those 6 games...
The rangers won 2 games by 1 goal, and 2 games by 2 goals. 6 Goals total.

Henrik Lundqvist won us round 1.

or, if you like...

Carey Price lost the Canadiens round 1.

However you want to write that script..the Habs generated more scoring chances than the Rangers.

High Danger Lundqvist Vs Price
41 - 31

Medium Danger Lundqvist VS Price
48 - 36

Low Danger Lundqvist VS Price
72 - 80

the rangers threw more garbage at the net...Montreal threw more high quality shots on net.

We didn't win because of AV outcoaching Julien. Julien, with a FAR inferior lineup, got a substantially higher number of high quality scoring chances. If AV is so brilliant his system would have had a lot more high danger scoring chances for... there were 5 other goalis in the first round who saw more high danger shots than Price...a team with literally 1 good defenseman.

If AV is so brilliant he wouldnt allow a team with literally...1 friggin halfway decent line...and Steve Ott...and King..and a whole bunch of garbage..to generate the most high danger scoring chances against him.

So to even remotely say that AV deserves 1 iota of credit for getting his doors blown off by an inferior team just because his goalie stood on his head...is beyond absurd.

 

[Off Sides]

well its possible that in less than a months time the nashville predators may be reiterating that exact statement
i know i know nashvilles d makes ours look like a joke. just saying tho. most of the year they did not look like a stanley cup potential champ.
one can only hope they win.

I think it's just the sentiment that bothers me most, there is just no way the rosters of all the team who make the playoffs should be considered to have an equal chance at winning the cup.

If they are going on that, I have even less hope they are realizing why they are being eliminated from them

 

[Inferno]

yes he probably did and would be safe to say anderson saw many many more than hank did in round 2.
valiquette said just before game 6 that anderson faced 2.5 times as many as hank did in the series.

not quite 2.5 but defintely more..

Henrik did NOT outplay Anderson in that round...and we lost...which is why blowing 2 games due to coaching stupidity is absolutely inexcusable.

 

[Inferno]

Is there a single person on this planet who legitimately thinks the Senators are better than the Rangers? Its not at all shocking that we outchanced them.

 

[orland]

When so many people struggle to define what being "out-coached" exactly means, then yes, it is contestable.

Was Boucher out coaching AV when his team trailed almost every minute played from games 1-5?

The Rangers, as a team, from the coach on down, didn't execute at the end of games 1,2 and 5 and it ultimately lost them the series. So, unless you think Boucher's master plan was to play possum and then nail us at the very end of games, I don't subscribe to these ambiguous "out-coached" garbage as the sole or even main reason the Rangers lost.

The reason the Rangers led for most of the series is that they were a far better team than the Senators. Much better group of forwards. Similar defense corp - although the Sens superstar dman was at about 50% efficiency due to injuries and the Sens didn't have a Skjei like puck mover. And in theory at least the Sens have a inferior goalie although Anderson probably outplayed the King a bit.

The reason we are so susceptible to late game collapses is because AV relies on the the Staal and Girardi types in those situations. They pretty much just collapse around the net and then we hope to survive the inevitable and unending barrage. Much better strategy is what the Pens do - actually try to get the puck into the offensive zone in those situations. Sullivan mentioned that recently. AV decided to bench Skjei/Smith in those situations even though they were by far the best pair capable of getting the puck up ice. In fact, statistically they were the best d pair in the entire league after 2 rounds - and AV chose to bench them in crunch time!

BTW - that is a big reason why we lost the Cup finals to the Kings in 2014. Same thing happened at the end of most of the games that year too. We started strong and collapsed at the end of the games we lost. Girardi in particular cost us dearly in 2014. But somehow to AV he is a 1st pair warrior.

 

[Ail]

Is there a single person on this planet who legitimately thinks the Senators are better than the Rangers? Its not at all shocking that we outchanced them.

Yes, especially since the Senators just beat them 4-2. Right or wrong there are people who legitimately believe that.

 

[Inferno]

Is there a single person giving Credit to Boucher this series? I thought he was absolutely putrid. The only thing he did right was to put EK out there like the entire game.

Thats it. He was gifted a series by our stupidity. Nothing more.

 

[Mikos87]

Players don't play with a sense of urgency under this guy.

No sense of accountability.

There are some coaches that players hate. But respect.

AV is not that coach. He is liked, but not respected. There are hockey guys that think little of him, very little of him actually.

 

[Bluenote13]

Players don't play with a sense of urgency under this guy.

No sense of accountability.

There are some coaches that players hate. But respect.

AV is not that coach. He is liked, but not respected. There are hockey guys that think little of him, very little of him actually.

If this were true we'd be in really bad shape, cause Gorton both likes and respects the guy.

And according to hf poll, Gorton is very well liked, even though he likes AV

 

[TheTakedown]

I decided to do the math.

Henrik saw 41 high danger shots in the first round....41...the most in the entire playoffs of any team.

Carey Price saw 31.

Henrik allowed 4 of those 41...Price allowed 7 of his 31

If Henrik gave up the same number of HD goals that Price did thats and extra 7 goals against in those 6 games...
The rangers won 2 games by 1 goal, and 2 games by 2 goals. 6 Goals total.

Henrik Lundqvist won us round 1.

or, if you like...

Carey Price lost the Canadiens round 1.

However you want to write that script..the Habs generated more scoring chances than the Rangers.

High Danger Lundqvist Vs Price
41 - 31

Medium Danger Lundqvist VS Price
48 - 36

Low Danger Lundqvist VS Price
72 - 80

the rangers threw more garbage at the net...Montreal threw more high quality shots on net.

We didn't win because of AV outcoaching Julien. Julien, with a FAR inferior lineup, got a substantially higher number of high quality scoring chances. If AV is so brilliant his system would have had a lot more high danger scoring chances for... there were 5 other goalis in the first round who saw more high danger shots than Price...a team with literally 1 good defenseman.

If AV is so brilliant he wouldnt allow a team with literally...1 friggin halfway decent line...and Steve Ott...and King..and a whole bunch of garbage..to generate the most high danger scoring chances against him.

So to even remotely say that AV deserves 1 iota of credit for getting his doors blown off by an inferior team just because his goalie stood on his head...is beyond absurd.

God post. Thank you <3

 

[bl02]

not quite 2.5 but defintely more..

Henrik did NOT outplay Anderson in that round...and we lost...which is why blowing 2 games due to coaching stupidity is absolutely inexcusable.

Said it with benigno and Evan. 31-13 rangers so pretty much 2.5 yes . And according to him he has the best stat trackers there are .lol

 

[bl02]

I decided to do the math.

Henrik saw 41 high danger shots in the first round....41...the most in the entire playoffs of any team.

Carey Price saw 31.

Henrik allowed 4 of those 41...Price allowed 7 of his 31

If Henrik gave up the same number of HD goals that Price did thats and extra 7 goals against in those 6 games...
The rangers won 2 games by 1 goal, and 2 games by 2 goals. 6 Goals total.

Henrik Lundqvist won us round 1.

or, if you like...

Carey Price lost the Canadiens round 1.

However you want to write that script..the Habs generated more scoring chances than the Rangers.

High Danger Lundqvist Vs Price
41 - 31

Medium Danger Lundqvist VS Price
48 - 36

Low Danger Lundqvist VS Price
72 - 80

the rangers threw more garbage at the net...Montreal threw more high quality shots on net.

We didn't win because of AV outcoaching Julien. Julien, with a FAR inferior lineup, got a substantially higher number of high quality scoring chances. If AV is so brilliant his system would have had a lot more high danger scoring chances for... there were 5 other goalis in the first round who saw more high danger shots than Price...a team with literally 1 good defenseman.

If AV is so brilliant he wouldnt allow a team with literally...1 friggin halfway decent line...and Steve Ott...and King..and a whole bunch of garbage..to generate the most high danger scoring chances against him.

So to even remotely say that AV deserves 1 iota of credit for getting his doors blown off by an inferior team just because his goalie stood on his head...is beyond absurd.

Wait the inferior team you picked in 5 and others picked to go very deep because they have the amazing Julien and amazing corsi? Just wanted to make sure.

 

[bl02]

And yes it's absurd not to give the credit any coach in the first round but if we did it wouldn't fit the narrative. He's a flawed coach just like 80-85 percent of the coaches in this league .

 

[Inferno]

Wait the inferior team you picked in 5 and others picked to go very deep because they have the amazing Julien and amazing corsi? Just wanted to make sure.

Yep that very one...picked because of goaltending alone..as I mentioned in the thread..I expected them to dominate us...they did...I did not expect Henrik to dominate price.

 

[orland]

While covering the known AV flaws of poor deployment of personnel and poor strategy extensively we haven't spent enough time addressing his inability to motivate this group. To come out so flat in game 6 is inexcusable. Never would have happened under Torts. And Torts seems to have learned finally from his biggest flaw - overuse of the better players. AV never seems to change from his core (failed) philosophies.

AV runs the team with a corporate like structure and has minimal interaction with the players. Relies on the veteran group to provide leadership and the veteran group is the problem. He basically relies on the team to motivate themselves. He carries himself well and is very good with the press so he is treated gently even when screwing up compared to someone like Torts who antagonizes the press and gets covered by he press accordingly.

It's no coincidence that two of the remaining coaches have won Stanley Cups. Sullivan has been amazing since taking over Pens. Completely jettisoned the Pens veteran centric AV like philosophy under Bylsma. Also does not believe on sitting on leads and going into a shell like AV. Has dmen try to push puck up ice in crunch time and continue to try to score.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

While covering the known AV flaws of poor deployment of personnel and poor strategy extensively we haven't spent enough time addressing his inability to motivate this group. To come out so flat in game 6 is inexcusable. Never would have happened under Torts. And Torts seems to have learned finally from his biggest flaw - overuse of the better players. AV never seems to change from his core (failed) philosophies.

AV runs the team with a corporate like structure and has minimal interaction with the players. Relies on the veteran group to provide leadership and the veteran group is the problem. He basically relies on the team to motivate themselves. He carries himself well and is very good with the press so he is treated gently even when screwing up compared to someone like Torts who antagonizes the press and gets covered by he press accordingly.

It's no coincidence that two of the remaining coaches have won Stanley Cups. Sullivan has been amazing since taking over Pens. Completely jettisoned the Pens veteran centric AV like philosophy under Bylsma. Also does not believe on sitting on leads and going into a shell like AV. Has dmen try to push puck up ice in crunch time and continue to try to score.

I often wonder if this type of revisionist history will be employed when AV is eventually gone.

 

[orland]

I often wonder if this type of revisionist history will be employed when AV is eventually gone.

Excellent and meaningful response. Well supported with examples and solid reasoning. A very welcome addition to the discourse.

 

[Tawnos]

Excellent and meaningful response. Well supported with examples and solid reasoning. A very welcome addition to the discourse.

The Rangers needed 7 games to beat Ottawa in 2012 and probably lost the ECF against the Devils because they were often flat. They definitely were flat the entire Bruins series in 2013.

 

[Jersey Girl]

The Rangers needed 7 games to beat Ottawa in 2012 and probably lost the ECF against the Devils because they were often flat. They definitely were flat the entire Bruins series in 2013.

Not possible - when the team is flat it has to be AV's fault.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Excellent and meaningful response. Well supported with examples and solid reasoning. A very welcome addition to the discourse.

Yeah I really don't feel the need to go much further when your entire post is predicated on a BS concept that the Rangers were never flat/uninspired under Torts.