Player Discussion Alain Vigneault Part VI

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TheDirtyH

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What AV still has going for him is just what Larry Brooks wrote about: right now the Ranger's players have been their own worst enemy. If Kreider had buried a few of his chances by now, what would our record be and would AV have moved him off Zibanejad's wing? Skjei, Smith, and Shattenkirk all started poorly. Really, the only players who have been pretty much the same/good every game are Zib, Miller, and Nash.

To me, there's one move to make before the coaching change, I keep saying it, but give the kids a look. Nieves and Lettieri don't have to 'save the season' or play miraculously well. If they both use their speed to disrupt the other team and can be disruptors that help our roster buy time and not get rolled over by momentum swings off of broken plays, then we have something. At least we wouldn't be the only team on the ice f***ing simple things up all the time.

How many times have teams off to bad starts switched their fringe players with young guys succeeding as checker/scorers in the AHL and had great success? We're not talking about adding a 1C from Hartford, we're talking about a 3RW and a 4C. Pitt 2016—Khunakel, Rust, Sheary. L.A. 2012—King, Nolan, Lewis. Those are just two 'off the dome.' It happens every year. If we can't play fast without perfect precision in our puck movements and assignments, get some players who are going to play fast anyway, and we have them already, just call them up and play them.
 
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Levitate

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Are we not saying the same thing, I mentioned lack of commitment in the first post you quoted, but it's also not like these players are or will ever be known as good defenders.

Fair. They don't really need to be known as good defenders I think. When I think "good defender" I think a guy who's very good positionally int he defensive zone, good with his stick, makes it tough to play against. I just don't think basic things like tying up your man so he can't get a shot are that crazy for pretty much any player to do and to be clear I'm thinking of specific instances where I see players get back to "cover" an attacking forward and start coasting a stride behind them. Not because it was too late to do any more, just that apparently being within a few feet of a guy means you have them covered? Then that player gets a pass, the Rangers player can't actually cover them, then they score, etc. This happens a lot. Yet I see attacking Rangers players tied up all the time as they try to join the play late and get a scoring chance. Every team they play does that, yet the Rangers are pretty poor at it. There's a lack of commitment from both the players and coaching staff to do some of these basic things.
 

Off Sides

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Sep 8, 2008
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I agree with much of that, I just don't expect most of them to do it regardless of who is coaching. They seem to be under the impression that they are good, perhaps part of that is on AV but at this point I have to think coaching has shown the players tape after tape concerning what they are not doing. So while there may be a honeymoon period should they change coaches, I am more thinking it's just not within the fiber of some of these guys to compete defensively game in and game out. I guess just different perspectives, when I watch I am angry at the players for not putting in that sort of effort or battle level rather than at coaching not being able to somehow instill it in them.
 

haveandare

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Jul 2, 2009
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What AV still has going for him is just what Larry Brooks wrote about: right now the Ranger's players have been their own worst enemy. If Kreider had buried a few of his chances by now, what would our record be and would AV have moved him off Zibanejad's wing? Skjei, Smith, and Shattenkirk all started poorly. Really, the only players who have been pretty much the same/good every game are Zib, Miller, and Nash.

To me, there's one move to make before the coaching change, I keep saying it, but give the kids a look. Nieves and Lettieri don't have to 'save the season' or play miraculously well. If they both use their speed to disrupt the other team and can be disruptors that help our roster buy time and not get rolled over by momentum swings off of broken plays, then we have something. At least we wouldn't be the only team on the ice ****ing simple things up all the time.

How many times have teams off to bad starts switched their fringe players with young guys succeeding as checker/scorers in the AHL and had great success? We're not talking about adding a 1C from Hartford, we're talking about a 3RW and a 4C. Pitt 2016—Khunakel, Rust, Sheary. L.A. 2012—King, Nolan, Lewis. Those are just two 'off the dome.' It happens every year. If we can't play fast without perfect precision in our puck movements and assignments, get some players who are going to play fast anyway, and we have them already, just call them up and play them.
There's some truth to this, but you also have to ask why or how almost every single player is struggling so badly to start. Weigh the odds of that just happening by dumb bad luck and the odds of that happening because the coach is making bad decisions. One seems way more likely to me.
 

Ori

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And someone please buy AV and his wife - I assume he is married some tickets on a cruise to Bahamas from Florida this week. Meanwhile Glen Sather get your jet and fly in Darryl Sutter to fix this. :)
 

haveandare

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We are quite possibly the easiest team in the league to defend against... not one player scares any other team. They probably circle Hank on the dry erase board still and say "THIS is the guy we have to worry about"

No one talks about how to stop our mediocre players.
This is just pouty and inaccurate imo.

This sentiment is really spread throughout the league. If you don't have one of like a dozen young dynamos you might as well just fold the franchise and go home, or sell off everything you do have in hopes of a top pick to get one of these guys in the future.

Look at Zucc for instance. Zucc scored the same amount of points last year as Kuznetsov. Is he someone other teams worry about? I'd say yes without a doubt. William Nylander, one of those young dynamo players everyone fawns over, scored 2 points more than Zucc. Same with Gaudreau, same with Marner, same with Hoffman. Even guys like Laine, Ehlers, Atkinson, Tavares - the highest scoring among them is Tavares with 66 points to Zucc's 59. Should other teams worry about those guys? Again, yes undoubtedly. Yet Zucc shouldn't be worried about. And why? Because he's a Ranger and the Rangers "don't have top players."

Kreider had 53 points last year. Same as Saad, Sheary, Drouin, MacKinnon, Hall, Perry, Barkov. Do other teams worry about those guys? They should. They should worry about Kreider too.

On D, take Shattenkirk. Last year he was 4th in points by d-men. Only Burns, Hedman and Karlsson scored more. He outscored Hamilton, Klingberg, Josi, Pietrangelo, Werenski, Subban, Giordano, Ekman-Larsson, Gostisbehere - the list goes on. Teams should worry about every single guy I listed and they should worry about Shattenkirk.

Lastly, Skjei. 39 points last year. Good for 29th in the league from d-men. Outscored Ellis, Faulk, Brodie, Parayko, Dumba, Severson, Provorov, Hanifin, Vatanen... teams should and do worry about all of those guys and Skjei too.

The idea that we don't have dangerous players is not in line with reality. It's just not. People, including and maybe especially our own fans, just tend to think our guys are lesser for whatever reason. Maybe because they don't pay attention to the actual numbers they put up and the other players they think are dangerous put up. Maybe some sort of defensive cynicism. I don't know what the root of it is, but it's just not true.
 

will1066

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Oct 12, 2008
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This is just pouty and inaccurate imo.

This sentiment is really spread throughout the league. If you don't have one of like a dozen young dynamos you might as well just fold the franchise and go home, or sell off everything you do have in hopes of a top pick to get one of these guys in the future.

Look at Zucc for instance. Zucc scored the same amount of points last year as Kuznetsov. Is he someone other teams worry about? I'd say yes without a doubt. William Nylander, one of those young dynamo players everyone fawns over, scored 2 points more than Zucc. Same with Gaudreau, same with Marner, same with Hoffman. Even guys like Laine, Ehlers, Atkinson, Tavares - the highest scoring among them is Tavares with 66 points to Zucc's 59. Should other teams worry about those guys? Again, yes undoubtedly. Yet Zucc shouldn't be worried about. And why? Because he's a Ranger and the Rangers "don't have top players."

Kreider had 53 points last year. Same as Saad, Sheary, Drouin, MacKinnon, Hall, Perry, Barkov. Do other teams worry about those guys? They should. They should worry about Kreider too.

On D, take Shattenkirk. Last year he was 4th in points by d-men. Only Burns, Hedman and Karlsson scored more. He outscored Hamilton, Klingberg, Josi, Pietrangelo, Werenski, Subban, Giordano, Ekman-Larsson, Gostisbehere - the list goes on. Teams should worry about every single guy I listed and they should worry about Shattenkirk.

Lastly, Skjei. 39 points last year. Good for 29th in the league from d-men. Outscored Ellis, Faulk, Brodie, Parayko, Dumba, Severson, Provorov, Hanifin, Vatanen... teams should and do worry about all of those guys and Skjei too.

The idea that we don't have dangerous players is not in line with reality. It's just not. People, including and maybe especially our own fans, just tend to think our guys are lesser for whatever reason. Maybe because they don't pay attention to the actual numbers they put up and the other players they think are dangerous put up. Maybe some sort of defensive cynicism. I don't know what the root of it is, but it's just not true.
Overdramatic for sure, but it's because we watch these guys every game and know every little mistake to nitpick for days. I'm sure fans of other teams see their superstar players similarly in not the best light. They see the warts we don't. I'm sure fans on other teams mention who on our team to look for when they play us.
 
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TheDirtyH

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There's some truth to this, but you also have to ask why or how almost every single player is struggling so badly to start. Weigh the odds of that just happening by dumb bad luck and the odds of that happening because the coach is making bad decisions. One seems way more likely to me.

Are there other explanations as well? Has 'every single player' been struggling so badly? I think there are better decisions to be made by AV, but his decisions aren't That crazy or unprecedented. So far everything has had to do with moving around the players he has and trying to find combos that work immediately, anything that can lift us closer to .500 for the time being.

The players getting scoring chances aren't scoring. There are players that aren't getting anything. The defense has been shaky almost top to bottom. Seems to me like some of it is, after all, dumb bad luck. Some it is AV. But most of it is the players needing time to get familiar with each other on the ice; that they're not being rewarded for anything they do well at even strength, that becomes more difficult because 1) the players are going to struggle to build confidence if the game feels like it's against them and 2) it forces AVs hand, and he cannot afford the players the patience they need.

I didn't watch the Devils game and think 'wow if only we had the Devils' lineup,' 'oh, if only we had Hischier, Henrique, Jesper Bratt, and Jimmy Hayes,' 'Hynes must be a magnificent coach.' Mostly I thought, wow, Kinkaid is playing extremely well, and wow, why can't we complete a simple pass.
 

Kaapo di tutti capi

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Are there other explanations as well? Has 'every single player' been struggling so badly? I think there are better decisions to be made by AV, but his decisions aren't That crazy or unprecedented. So far everything has had to do with moving around the players he has and trying to find combos that work immediately, anything that can lift us closer to .500 for the time being.

The players getting scoring chances aren't scoring. There are players that aren't getting anything. The defense has been shaky almost top to bottom. Seems to me like some of it is, after all, dumb bad luck. Some it is AV. But most of it is the players needing time to get familiar with each other on the ice; that they're not being rewarded for anything they do well at even strength, that becomes more difficult because 1) the players are going to struggle to build confidence if the game feels like it's against them and 2) it forces AVs hand, and he cannot afford the players the patience they need.

I didn't watch the Devils game and think 'wow if only we had the Devils' lineup,' 'oh, if only we had Hischier, Henrique, Jesper Bratt, and Jimmy Hayes,' 'Hynes must be a magnificent coach.' Mostly I thought, wow, Kinkaid is playing extremely well, and wow, why can't we complete a simple pass.

You mean that thing he should have done in the preseason?
 
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Machinehead

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The corsi kind of went up and down, but our expected goals problems can be traced almost perfectly to AV's tenure.
 

SlapshotTheMovie

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The problem with firing AV is we get Ruff. Honestly at this point i am willing to take it. I don't think its a forward step but getting away from AV is worth it. In a kinda realistic perfect situation we fire AV. Ruff steps in but isn't named coach and we try and find someone better for next year in the mean time. Sutter is avaialble but he has had the same criticism of rookies AV does. A lot of this old school coaches do. They think if they are not 100% NHL ready they dont deserve ice time while vets struggle game in and game out and they keep getting shots to play through it.
 

True Blue

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We are quite possibly the easiest team in the league to defend against... not one player scares any other team. They probably circle Hank on the dry erase board still and say "THIS is the guy we have to worry about"

No one talks about how to stop our mediocre players.
That is not a player issue, but an indication of their play. When you play on the outside, are incapable of defending the front of your net and cannot be bothered to get their nose dirty, you are very easy to play against.
 

Mac n Gs

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Hockey rodent with some great stuff on AV this morning. Too bad he doesn’t write more because he’s the best writer re: NYR bar none
 

Levitate

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These boards would be sour on Sutter within a season.

Not sure this teams personnel is that suitable for Sutter but you never know. Everyone would totally rag on him for his press conferences though.
 

GordonGecko

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It's weird how when I hit my bookmark or watched threads, the top 2 are usually:
"Alain Vigneault Part VI"
immediately followed by:
"Natural Disaster Watch"
 

GordonGecko

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Not sure this teams personnel is that suitable for Sutter but you never know. Everyone would totally rag on him for his press conferences though.
nobody would rag, have you seen AV's pressers? Nobody asks him anything. 2 seconds after it starts it's "That's all? OK Boys..."
 
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