AHL response to team eligibility when a franchise loses its NHL affiliate

[pelts35.com]

Not saying that it wasn't better... Some of my fondest memories were the Pirates of the early 90's, but those are just memories. I'll always have them and cherish them, but for me those days are gone and this is the here and now.

Yes, those days are gone and it's because of the weaker, not as entertaining product that I no longer go to 50-60 games per year. Looking at the decreasing attendance numbers, I am clearly not alone.

 

[mtlhddoc2]

I like the turnaround to a degree, I mean, 2 years ago, my family and I hung out with Brad Marchand at the P-Bruins outdoor skate. I met Ryder during a season tix event a few years back and my kids played hockey with Aaron Downey back in 99 when the PBs won the cup. Really, waht is cooler than that?

 

[mtlhddoc2]

Yes, those days are gone and it's because of the weaker, not as entertaining product that I no longer go to 50-60 games per year. Looking at the decreasing attendance numbers, I am clearly not alone.

I think the decreasing attendence numbers you speak of (which are only apparent in certain cities) is more because of lack of continuity with NHL affiliation. Bruins in Providence are strong and a mainstay in the community. the Canadian affiliates have no problem filling seats either. If you want something to complain about, it would be the constant moving and switching affiliations. Go back 15 years, how many teams are in the same spot they were in say, 1997 that they are now. 3? 6? Stick em in the same spot with tough relocating rules and attendance will increase. Force them to affiliate for a minimum of 5 years and BOOM, attendance gets better. The product IS good. You are just too blinded by nostalgia to see it. I really dont get why you guys even watch any more if you hate it so much. Move on. There are plenty of CHL teams and OHL teams you can watch. Or check out the local colleges. (but be warned, they change players pretty often too!)

 

[Majik1987]

Answer me this: what are "AHL veterans but guys who couldnt make it in the bigs? My argument there holds as much water as yours does.

Doesn't mean they don't have skills that can help a team win. They can fill in those skill areas that developmental players just don't have yet. These vets are looking to win at whatever level their playing at. Many of them know they aren't going to make it to the NHL, so this is their shot to win a championship. Younger players can look to these veteran players to learn how to act on and off the ice. These vets are the ones who are going to stand up in the dressing room and lead. If you are playing only for development, these vets won't be there and that will do a great disservice to the development player. The vets can teach the new players a lot about the game, adding to their development.

And if winning is what matters, why are there age limits in the juniors?

Ummm, maybe because Major Junior hockey features younger players. Still doesn't mean they aren't focused on winning. Just because you have a limit on ages doesn't mean you can't focus on winning within those parameters.

And that leads me back to the AHL. Even if an AHL team went independent from any NHL affiliate, they would still have to play within the parameters of the league and only skate a certain number of players that qualify as vets. Doesn't mean they can't focus on winning within the parameters of the league. Same with an affiliated team. They should be trying to win within the parameters of the league.

 

[mtlhddoc2]

you keep acting like every team is purposely trying to lose. Thats just strange. some years, teams will lose. It happens, just ask the Cleveland Browns or Pittsburgh Pirates.

 

[sabrefan27]

Yes, those days are gone and it's because of the weaker, not as entertaining product that I no longer go to 50-60 games per year. Looking at the decreasing attendance numbers, I am clearly not alone.

And it's that mentality of "oh well the past is gone and never coming back" that really stinks. Just taking whatever you get and accepting it. That attitude is why the league is on the downslope.

Like I've said many times, if the league had more teams like Hershey and Chicago who demand winners and proactively seek it out, the league would be on a whole other, much better, level.

 

[mtlhddoc2]

there are 30 teams, every year there are 20 who dont make the playoffs. It is going to happen every year. How can you "demand a winner" unless you steal all the talent from your NHL club? The teams, as I have seen, are pretty even mostly. With a few exceptions, every team has a chance every year, and it is more likely that there can be a big turnaround BECAUSE there is lots of new talent flowing through each year.

 

[Majik1987]

you keep acting like every team is purposely trying to lose. Thats just strange. some years, teams will lose. It happens, just ask the Cleveland Browns or Pittsburgh Pirates.

In some cases, teams have a bad year. Or even a bad couple years. But do you honestly think every team is trying to win? Really? How about Albany? I can't believe that they are trying to win. It might be a happy coincidence in a season, but no, I don't believe they are trying to win. I'm sure other people could name a few more teams that make a half-hearted stab at icing a winning team.

To use your example, do you think that the Pirates are REALLY trying to win? When is the last time they ever tried to get a top player that isn't a prospect? I'm not saying they are throwing games, but they really aren't putting teams out there that have a snowballs chance of winning? Just showing up and putting some players out there doesn't mean you are trying to win.

 

[sabrefan27]

there are 30 teams, every year there are 20 who dont make the playoffs. It is going to happen every year. How can you "demand a winner" unless you steal all the talent from your NHL club? The teams, as I have seen, are pretty even mostly. With a few exceptions, every team has a chance every year, and it is more likely that there can be a big turnaround BECAUSE there is lots of new talent flowing through each year.

Wow. That speaks for itself. I'm not even going to attempt to argue the other side anymore.

 

[axecrew]

Wow. That speaks for itself. I'm not even going to attempt to argue the other side anymore.

Wow...doesn't even come close. Guess you now know who or what you are dealing with.



Hutch is that you lurking in there? Guess my mathematic skills are a little rusty.
Because if I remember correctly....and I know I do.....there are 30 teams....2 conferences.......4 divisions.....4 teams per division make the playoffs.....so if my math is right......4 teams times 4 divisions equals 16 teams. So take the 30 and subtract 16 and that leaves 20.....yup works for me. Did we expand and not tell anyone?

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

Wow...doesn't even come close. Guess you now know who or what you are dealing with.



Hutch is that you lurking in there? Guess my mathematic skills are a little rusty.
Because if I remember correctly....and I know I do.....there are 30 teams....2 conferences.......4 divisions.....4 teams per division make the playoffs.....so if my math is right......4 teams times 4 divisions equals 16 teams. So take the 30 and subtract 16 and that leaves 20.....yup works for me. Did we expand and not tell anyone?

Speaking of Hutch, what happened to him? Haven't seen him post in quite awhile, did he somehow find a way to get banned?

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

I love when people say that one person's argument is crap just because they have a different opinion. I do not agree with you that all NHL teams care whether their AHL teams win or lose. I certainly agree that the players are trying to win, but, no, I do not agree that the management of the parent clubs cares. Again, look at the Devils. Season after season their affiliate is terrible, yet they develop players who step right in when needed at the NHL level. So, do you really think that the Devils brass cares that the River Rats, then Lock Monsters, then L-Devils, now Albany Devils are perennial losers?

With regard to your first paragraph, no, we are never going back to 1998, but it doesn't change sabrefan's or my opinion that the league was much better then than it is now.

However, I do wonder what kind of roster an AHL team could field if they didn't have to pay the NHL affiliation fee and paid for their own players in a league with a salary cap. The main reason why signing high priced players long term is because currently NHL teams are paying their salary in a system with no salary cap. Put in a salary cap and, voila, salaries for such players will go down and could be signed for multiple seasons, where, gasp, there could actually be some continuity on an AHL roster instead of the local fans wondering who is going to be on their team next year.

In regard to your last paragraph I think you'd just have an ECHL/CHL type league.(I don't believe ECHL teams pay an affiliation fee to the AHL clubs) In essence, you would just have 2 other leagues to compete with to sign talent. But if you paid for your own players, you would no longer get that many prospects, or any(if you have no affiliations)

I honestly believe, as far as integrity and what not goes, the UHL had the right business model but just the wrong desire and time. I mean the AHL for the most part is a bus league itself(like the UHL was and that was what they wanted to cling to) but anyway, if you wanted to win...you could and nobody could rightfully stop you, but you also had to be aware that your willingness to spend helped out other franchises. I wouldnt mind seeing a league adopt that model again, but the ECHL and AHL as long as things are written in stone how they are, are stuck with the business model they have now.

I think the decreasing attendence numbers you speak of (which are only apparent in certain cities) is more because of lack of continuity with NHL affiliation. Bruins in Providence are strong and a mainstay in the community. the Canadian affiliates have no problem filling seats either. If you want something to complain about, it would be the constant moving and switching affiliations. Go back 15 years, how many teams are in the same spot they were in say, 1997 that they are now. 3? 6? Stick em in the same spot with tough relocating rules and attendance will increase. Force them to affiliate for a minimum of 5 years and BOOM, attendance gets better. The product IS good. You are just too blinded by nostalgia to see it. I really dont get why you guys even watch any more if you hate it so much. Move on. There are plenty of CHL teams and OHL teams you can watch. Or check out the local colleges. (but be warned, they change players pretty often too!)

Oh yeah, Hamilton, Toronto and Abbotsford are kicking *** at the gate.

I love how for the decrease in attendance that nobody has mentioned the economy. Things were a lot different in 98 then they are now. The economy was booming then. People had $$$ to waste. Ever since 9/11(right around the time the IHL failed, ironically) the economy has slowly gone into the crapper. I'm not trying to get all political and such. I think the change of the league has hurt but also disposabl income with higher gas prices and all, isn't what it used to be.

The funny thing is, I believe I have heard the last few seasons the ECHL is the only minor league to increase it's attendance in each season. Now of course some of the expansion choices they made has undoubtedly helped, and like that new arena in Toledo. But fans who have had ECHL teams for like 10-15 years all say the same thing to me, the product used to be better and that people in say the Northeast with teams were getting excited with affiliated hockey but fans in like the South warned them not to get too excited about that, I think to a degree they are right. It's no fun going to a game wondering whos going to play, versus the older days where you had a really good idea.

 

[mtlhddoc2]

Green: Manitoba did rather well, and Ham and Ab didnt do too badly either.

http://www.mib.org/~lennier/hockey/leagueatt.cgi

It should be noted that Canada has 30 million people, while New England ALONE has more than 30 million. Toronto also has an NHL team.

Math: I had NFL on the brain and was off by a couple, so sue me. I like the AHL and go watch it often, you all hate it, so why are you still here? Go watch a team that is trying to "win" as you put it.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

Green: Manitoba did rather well, and Ham and Ab didnt do too badly either.

http://www.mib.org/~lennier/hockey/leagueatt.cgi

It should be noted that Canada has 30 million people, while New England ALONE has more than 30 million. Toronto also has an NHL team.

Math: I had NFL on the brain and was off by a couple, so sue me. I like the AHL and go watch it often, you all hate it, so why are you still here? Go watch a team that is trying to "win" as you put it.

You took the cheap route when you did attendance, try this:

http://www.mib.org/~lennier/hockey/att.cgi

Hamilton and Abbotsford were under the ECHL Average...

 

[pelts35.com]

I like the turnaround to a degree, I mean, 2 years ago, my family and I hung out with Brad Marchand at the P-Bruins outdoor skate. I met Ryder during a season tix event a few years back and my kids played hockey with Aaron Downey back in 99 when the PBs won the cup. Really, waht is cooler than that?

Again, you are in the minority. Most people who support a team like to see some of the same faces year after year after year, especially those that are good contributors to the team and community.

 

[pelts35.com]

Math: I had NFL on the brain and was off by a couple, so sue me. I like the AHL and go watch it often, you all hate it, so why are you still here? Go watch a team that is trying to "win" as you put it.

Good for you that you like it and watch it often. I guess we aren't entitled to our opinion that we don't like it as much as we once did?

I don't think anyone has used the word "hate", so I'm not sure why you are putting words in our mouths. However, just because we don't like it as much as we did, do we not have the right to discuss the AHL. I mean, this is only the AHL forum on this website.

I really don't know why you are getting hostile. Is it because we are criticizing the league that you spend a lot of money to go see? Simply put, I still enjoy going to some games because I love hockey and it's much more affordable than the NHL. However, I do not enjoy it as much as I once did, which is why I now go to 5 games a year instead of 50.

 

[HansH]

I really don't know why you are getting hostile. Is it because we are criticizing the league that you spend a lot of money to go see?

Maybe it's because several of the posters in this thread who are saying "the modern AHL is horrid" are also dismissing and even coming close to berating anyone who doesn't agree with them -- that'll get someone on the defensive very quickly.

 

[mtlhddoc2]

Maybe it's because several of the posters in this thread who are saying "the modern AHL is horrid" are also dismissing and even coming close to berating anyone who doesn't agree with them -- that'll get someone on the defensive very quickly.

Exactly. They have made it clear that this current version of the AHL sucks. So why do they still watch it and talk about it? Nostalgia is nice and all, but it is like talking to a grumpy 80 year old who thinks the world has gone to pot because women are allowed to vote.

 

[pelts35.com]

Exactly. They have made it clear that this current version of the AHL sucks. So why do they still watch it and talk about it? Nostalgia is nice and all, but it is like talking to a grumpy 80 year old who thinks the world has gone to pot because women are allowed to vote.

Please stop putting words in our mouths. What we have said ad nauseum is that we think that the AHL 10 years ago was better than it is today. Should we just forget about that, never speak of it again and just be happy with the product that is on the ice today?

Again, you think the league is better today and you are entitled to your opinion, just as we are entitled to our opinion that the league was better yesterday. Why do you need to take it to the extreme that we shouldn't watch or talk about it any more?

 

[mtlhddoc2]

I do believe, Pelts, you were the one that suggested that the league is so ridiculous, they should just have a full year training camp, are you not? If you had just said "oh, it was better 10 years ago" and left it at that, we wouldnt even be having this conversation.

 

[pelts35.com]

I do believe, Pelts, you were the one that suggested that the league is so ridiculous, they should just have a full year training camp, are you not? If you had just said "oh, it was better 10 years ago" and left it at that, we wouldnt even be having this conversation.

Perhaps before you accuse me of something you should go through the thread and find who made this suggestion, because it certainly wasn't me. But, hey, why let facts get in the way?

If that's the sentiment, then why even play games? Just hold a series of scrimmages where minor league squads can just work on hockey skills. For instance, you could have one team focus on the power play and the other on the penalty kill for 60 minutes. The next night, reverse it. There would be no point in keeping score because the purpose is development. Just fling the gate open too and let people show up for free. No one is going to pay to watch two teams play out the string just to develop.

 

[mtlhddoc2]

I thought it was you, I had no interest in backtracking. So it was majl - arent you two the same person anyway

 

[wildcat48]

This argument could be applied to numerous sports. It's funny I could replace "AHL" with "NASCAR" and have the same argument.

"Back in day when Richard Petty was driving... That was real racing. Not this sissified watered down stuff we have today."

It's pretty comical if you ask me....

 

[pelts35.com]

This argument could be applied to numerous sports. It's funny I could replace "AHL" with "NASCAR" and have the same argument.

"Back in day when Richard Petty was driving... That was real racing. Not this sissified watered down stuff we have today."

It's pretty comical if you ask me....

You could replace AHL with a number of professional leagues, but I'm not sure what makes it comical. I think it's sad that the majority of the people that post here and that I know who go to AHL games think the product is not nearly as good as it once was.

 

[pelts35.com]

I thought it was you, I had no interest in backtracking. So it was majl - arent you two the same person anyway

No, we aren't the same person.

Next time you accuse someone of doing something, you should probably check your facts first though. It would have taken you all of 15 seconds or so to get your facts straight.