Speculation: Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XXXV: Trotzyism in Action

[Ajax1995]

I'm the guy who realizes that Orpik is a #5 and Niskanen is a #4/middling #3. There's a reason the fans of a defensively shakey Penguins squad unanimously don't mind letting them go.

Willie Mitchell brings more than Orpik at this point and he went for a cheaper 2 year deal.

I am not saying the Orpik deal was necessarily a good one and I completely agree Mitchell at the same rate and term he signed with in Florida would have been a better signing. What I am saying though is that IMO there were worse contracts given out there, chief amongst them the Grabovski/Kulimen double signing.

As far as Niskanen goes he may very well only turn out to be 'just' a decent 2nd pairing guy but he played far above that level last season. Was it just a contract year push and he'll settle back into the player he was in previous years or was it him making a step up in play at 26/27 that we can expect to continue I guess we will find out.

What I can say though is that IMO the Caps' blueline corps is dramatically better than it was last season. Could that have been achieved in a different/better fashion? I believe so yes but after what we have seen for a long while now in that area I'm happier that is was done at all than I am concerned about how it was done.

 

[Zoidberg Jesus]

Laich was signed a while ago so IMO not really applicable. But I'll take 5 years of Orpik at $5.5 over 4 years of those 2 for $9.1875 easily.

That's kind of an arbitrary comparison, isn't it? It's not like we would've had room for both of them just by not signing Orpik. Those two versus Orpik and Niskanen for 11.25M would be a better comparison, but even then you're comparing a finished offseason to one where there'd obviously be other moves. Signing Grabovski and Kulemin pretty much pushes Johansson and Brouwer out of their jobs, so you've got them available to trade for a defenseman, with ~7.7M in cap space to work with from the salary moving out and the salary difference between G+K vs O+N. It's just speculation, but maybe Johansson and Brouwer could've been the basis for a Phaneuf trade? So then the comparison is Grabovski+Kulemin+Phaneuf for 16.2M versus Orpik+Niskanen+Johansson+Brouwer+possible futures in the Phaneuf trade for 16.9M. Personally, I like the former a lot more than the latter.

 

[Devil Dancer]

I see it as two signings, of course. The Grabo signing was fine. The Kulemin signing was iffy at best.

 

[Ajax1995]

I see it as two signings, of course. The Grabo signing was fine. The Kulemin signing was iffy at best.

But all signs point to that not being the case. They were a package deal so IMO you can't separate the two. To get Grabovski you had to take Kulimen and apparently pay him $4.1875 mil per for 4 years. No thank you...

 

[Ajax1995]

That's kind of an arbitrary comparison, isn't it? It's not like we would've had room for both of them just by not signing Orpik. Those two versus Orpik and Niskanen for 11.25M would be a better comparison, but even then you're comparing a finished offseason to one where there'd obviously be other moves. Signing Grabovski and Kulemin pretty much pushes Johansson and Brouwer out of their jobs, so you've got them available to trade for a defenseman, with ~7.7M in cap space to work with from the salary moving out and the salary difference between G+K vs O+N. It's just speculation, but maybe Johansson and Brouwer could've been the basis for a Phaneuf trade? So then the comparison is Grabovski+Kulemin+Phaneuf for 16.2M versus Orpik+Niskanen+Johansson+Brouwer+possible futures in the Phaneuf trade for 16.9M. Personally, I like the former a lot more than the latter.

Why stop with Phaneuf with this 'maybe they would have traded for' fantasy? Maybe they could have landed Doughty...?

At this point outside of draft day deals I don't think there has been a single trade this offseason. Pretending the Caps could have easily gone out and fixed their defense via a trade(s) when there have been no trades isn't very realistic IMO. In theory? Sure. In practice??? Plus the whole league then knows the Caps are definitely overloaded at wing and badly in need of defense. Not exactly a position of strength to get good value for your assets and not way overpaying for what you need.

I have no problem moving the comparison to Orpik and Niskanen for $11.25 mil per or Grabovski and Kulimen for $9.1875 mil per though. And I'm taking a strong defense and possible hole at 2C over last year's team plus a way overpaid $4+ mil winger they don't in anyway need and an additional $2 mil in cap space.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

But all signs point to that not being the case. They were a package deal so IMO you can't separate the two. To get Grabovski you had to take Kulimen and apparently pay him $4.1875 mil per for 4 years. No thank you...

Exactly.

 

[txpd]

your position on the management and ownership can make the grabo thing easy to decide. grabovski was reported to want to do a package deal with kulemin. caps didn't want kulemin and therefore was not in play for the guy. if you are not inclined to agree with the new gm's moves its easy to dismiss kulemin and revert to grabs saying he wanted to stay.

my view is that kulemin was the deal killer for the caps.

 

[Zoidberg Jesus]

Why stop with Phaneuf with this 'maybe they would have traded for' fantasy? Maybe they could have landed Doughty...?

At this point outside of draft day deals I don't think there has been a single trade this offseason. Pretending the Caps could have easily gone out and fixed their defense via a trade(s) when there have been no trades isn't very realistic IMO. In theory? Sure. In practice??? Plus the whole league then knows the Caps are definitely overloaded at wing and badly in need of defense. Not exactly a position of strength to get good value for your assets and not way overpaying for what you need.

I have no problem moving the comparison to Orpik and Niskanen for $11.25 mil per or Grabovski and Kulimen for $9.1875 mil per though. And I'm taking a strong defense and possible hole at 2C over last year's team plus a way overpaid $4+ mil winger they don't in anyway need and an additional $2 mil in cap space.

There were plenty of trade rumors around Phaneuf at the time and a lot of Leafs fans actually thought that was a good framework, so it wasn't totally outlandish. Even if you don't agree with that, Gorges was traded to Buffalo on July 1. I'm sure he would've waived to come here over Buffalo if we'd made an offer.

I was surprised by what Kulemin got too, but I wouldn't be surprised if he lives up to it. The summer after his big season was the Lokomotiv crash, and apparently he lost a really good friend which really shook him up. He struggled that season and never got another chance at more than a shutdown role in Toronto. I think he gets 20-20 this year.

 

[txpd]

I think nowadays to just assume a trade could get done if a team wanted to make a trade, is folly. it just doesn't happen that much.

meanwhile I would not want Phaneuf. He was given up on by Calgary. Being traded out of Toronto after failure would not make him the kind of person I would expect to be the leading force you are trading for.

 

[Devil Dancer]

your position on the management and ownership can make the grabo thing easy to decide. grabovski was reported to want to do a package deal with kulemin. caps didn't want kulemin and therefore was not in play for the guy. if you are not inclined to agree with the new gm's moves its easy to dismiss kulemin and revert to grabs saying he wanted to stay.

my view is that kulemin was the deal killer for the caps.

Again, Grabo specifically said before free agency started the he and Kula were not a package, and that he would be willing to re-sign in DC without Kulemin.

 

[Backstrom #19]

your position on the management and ownership can make the grabo thing easy to decide. grabovski was reported to want to do a package deal with kulemin. caps didn't want kulemin and therefore was not in play for the guy. if you are not inclined to agree with the new gm's moves its easy to dismiss kulemin and revert to grabs saying he wanted to stay.

my view is that kulemin was the deal killer for the caps.

The deal killer was the Caps deciding to sign two defenseman and no forwards, instead of one defenseman and Grabo. GMBM actually said that himself.

And like DD said, Grabo was willing to sign in D.C. without Kulemin before free agency started.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

That's right, the Caps chose to roll the dice on Laich or someone else stepping up to play in the 2C and improving the greater need which was keeping the puck OUT of the net.

If I'm Leonsis, I'm pretty uninspired at the thought of paying Grabo $20 mil that's all. I'd prefer my GM aim a little higher if we want to really win a Cup.

 

[fedfed]

That's right, the Caps chose to roll the dice on Laich or someone else stepping up to play in the 2C and improving the greater need which was keeping the puck OUT of the net.

If I'm Leonsis, I'm pretty uninspired at the thought of paying Grabo $20 mil that's all. I'd prefer my GM aim a little higher if we want to really win a Cup.

I think the only way Brooks Orpik can help keeping the puck out of the net is just standing in front of it and blocking everything. But hey, Erskine could do that too.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I think the only way Brooks Orpik can help keeping the puck out of the net is just standing in front of it and blocking everything. But hey, Erskine could do that too.

Another converted Pens fan?

Maybe you should wait and see them actually play before predicting the future. Orpik is twice the player.

 

[Zoidberg Jesus]

That's right, the Caps chose to roll the dice on Laich or someone else stepping up to play in the 2C and improving the greater need which was keeping the puck OUT of the net.

If I'm Leonsis, I'm pretty uninspired at the thought of paying Grabo $20 mil that's all. I'd prefer my GM aim a little higher if we want to really win a Cup.

So we're aiming higher by going with Kuznetsov or Johansson at 2C?

And if you think an uninspired solution isn't a good one, how can you call Orpik at 27.5M for 2LD a good idea? That's rolling the dice with the greater need if I've ever seen it. Way bigger potential to become an anchor than Grabo's contract.

 

[txpd]

Again, Grabo specifically said before free agency started the he and Kula were not a package, and that he would be willing to re-sign in DC without Kulemin.

I remember Grabs saying that he wanted to stay. then he wanted to stay if Oates stayed and not so much if he didn't. then there was the kulemin thing. so....I am not clear on where the comment you mention above fit into all that.

maclellan said the money didn't work. grabs signed with kulemin.

 

[artilector]

This stuff about Niskanen being a package deal with Orpik and Grabo being a packaged deal with Kulemin is such low grade speculation that it only makes sense in terms of who peddles it.

Oh noes, after years of failure, it's completely inconceivable that the Caps might've made some bad/questionable moves. Of course, it was the players that left them no choice. It simply had to be, the equivalent of somebody's tweet about a possible rumor is rock solid evidence. Poor Caps. Of all teams, such sad fate. But what great fans, so understanding of management's brave decisions in an unforgiving world. Such compassion. Much respect.

 

[Carlzner]

We just signed two high profile top-4 defenseman.

We hired an experienced NHL head coach for the first time in the Ovechkin era, one that is widely regarded around the league as elite.

The best prospect we've had since Ovechkin has finally crossed the pond.

Yeah. Not the worst offseason ever.

 

[artilector]

We just signed two high profile top-4 defenseman.

We hired an experienced NHL head coach for the first time in the Ovechkin era, one that is widely regarded around the league as elite.

The best prospect we've had since Ovechkin has finally crossed the pond.

Yeah. Not the worst offseason ever.

You're absolutely right in every respect, and in fact I fully expect the Caps to be better next season than they were last season.

 

[SimplySensational]

From a personnel standpoint, I think it was a great summer. Cap management, not so much.

As far as I'm concerned, they have 6 NHL defenseman. For the Ovechkin era its been 2-3 defenseman and the rest would probably be worse than most contenders sixth defenseman.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

So we're aiming higher by going with Kuznetsov or Johansson at 2C?

And if you think an uninspired solution isn't a good one, how can you call Orpik at 27.5M for 2LD a good idea? That's rolling the dice with the greater need if I've ever seen it. Way bigger potential to become an anchor than Grabo's contract.

They'll be better than they were icing half an AHL D.

 

[fedfed]

Another converted Pens fan?

Maybe you should wait and see them actually play before predicting the future. Orpik is twice the player.

You're telling me he'll turn into Ryan Suter by donning the Caps jersey?

The transformations are usually to the opposite (see: Penner, Dustin; Erat, Martin; Vokoun, Tomas).

 

[BobRouse]

One of top line wingers has 22 goals in his last 188 GP.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean with this but I'm going under the assumption its a dig at Marcus Johansson.

Its a pretty weak dig considering that MJ should not be playing as a winger and the little fact that he is 23 years old.

Also in his rookie year Marcus Johansson had more assists than ANY year that either Grabovski or Kulemin did.

Oh and Johansson is making less than half of what either of those players are making.

I think nowadays to just assume a trade could get done if a team wanted to make a trade, is folly. it just doesn't happen that much.

meanwhile I would not want Phaneuf. He was given up on by Calgary. Being traded out of Toronto after failure would not make him the kind of person I would expect to be the leading force you are trading for.

I agree. No to Phaneuf.

There were lots of rumors about poor locker room attitude in Calgary. Every fan encounter with the guy that I read has one thing in common..he's a jerk.

Toronto is not rebuilding and he's their top Dman and captain. If they were looking to move him that just adds red flags to a player who has a great many of them already.


Orpik's contract is hard to swallow. But the fact is that he is a vet with a ring and experience. He's also a physical presence and thats something we sorely lacked on the blue line.

Also we didn't have to give up assets to acquire him. Our team is definitely better than last year. Anyone who says otherwise is not being honest and probably has a strong bias since they were against the new moves of management.


SIDE NOTE RE: Brouwer and Erskine rumors

http://youshstake.com/caps-erskine-move/

http://youshstake.com/troy-brouwer-trade-talks/

It doesn't shock me that the Caps have been looking to move Erskine but it must mean he is healthy if true. Also doesn't shock me there are no takers since he's damaged goods at this point.

Brouwer is curious. Why are these rumors surfacing now? If they were trying to trade him I figure they would have tried so earlier. If these rumors are true then the team is very very high on Tom Wilson. More than I thought they would be.

 

[txpd]

I don't really believe either of those posts. They are not from reliable people and their published sourcing is very weak. "two sources" on Erskine doesn't even connect that to the NHL in anyway. Believe nothing about that.

While I don't believe the Brouwer anymore than the Erskine, he is the player that makes the most sense to move if Wilson in playing RW on one of the top 3 lines. Even if OV is moved back to LW, they still have Wilson, Ward and Fehr. Plus it seems clear that they are looking for a roster spot for Bura.

 

[txpd]

You're telling me he'll turn into Ryan Suter by donning the Caps jersey?

The transformations are usually to the opposite (see: Penner, Dustin; Erat, Martin; Vokoun, Tomas).

I would tend to agree with you if Trotz has decided that Orpik only gets to play on the 3rd pair and not in any of the roles he is known to be good at.

Recall how well those three players you chose were rolled out. Vokoun was benched for the opener after being told he was playing and bringing his family in. Penner and Erat never got a chance to play. Neither played their way out of the lineup spot they belonged in.

Oates didn't want them and refused to use them.

So, yea. If Trotz hates Orpik and didn't want him and will refuse to use him. I agree with you.