A conversation about the C position

Discussion in 'Montreal Canadiens' started by NotProkofievian, Apr 15, 2018.

  1. mariolemieux66

    mariolemieux66 Registered User

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    Just like us, the Oilers traded a elite player for a downgrade. They threw stupid money at Lucic. They trade good draft picks for a player that wasn't worth it. Just like us the Oilers have the worst management team in the league.
     
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  2. 417

    417 Registered User

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    No one center is going to make us a contender...doesn't mean you don't get one of the price is right.
     
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  3. NotProkofievian

    NotProkofievian Registered User

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    No like, it was altogether unclear what you were even trying to say with that post. I honestly have no idea what you were trying to say besides ''but Edmonton.''

    Was there anything more substantive? Because I already said that tanking is not a guarantee, especially when you trade good draft picks for players who wont make you a contender on a purely needs basis, as Edmonton did.

    Do you actually have an answer to any of the questions I've asked you so far, or are you just derailing up a storm at this point?
     
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  4. NotProkofievian

    NotProkofievian Registered User

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    I have pretty unambiguously said that all I want is a plan. I've asked for it about a billion times now, and no one has given it to me.

    What has been presented so far is:

    1.) Trade 5th overall and Poehling for ROR
    2.) ???
    3.) Stanley Cup Contender

    What's the plan bro?
     
  5. mariolemieux66

    mariolemieux66 Registered User

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    The plan is to find someone dumb enough to trade Trocheck, Borgstrom, 1st and 2nd round pick for Pacioretty.
     
  6. Kimota

    Kimota KING IN THE NORTH!

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    That is usually how that works. You have guys that has brought us into this mess, it's now time for others to get a kick at the can. Not everybody can be as stupid as MB.
     
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  7. mariolemieux66

    mariolemieux66 Registered User

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    Nobody is!
    Not a chance!
     
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  8. Kimota

    Kimota KING IN THE NORTH!

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    :biglaugh::snide: :lol:
     
  9. Andrei79

    Andrei79 Registered User

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    We're not at point where a player acquired through trade (or many players acquired through many trades, for that matter) could really change the dynamic of the club.

    Disregarding that both Tavares and O'reilly are already supported by a deeper center line than what we have to offer, yet still failing, the team has more fundamental issues to fix.

    The major one being that our only core quality player that's been drafted by the club plays the position with the least value in the league, coming off an awful year. There aren't enough key positions held by players drafted and developped by the club.

    I think, at some point, all of our defense and centers were drafted or picked up from waivers, or close to it.
     
  10. Ozmodiar

    Ozmodiar Registered User

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    10 years of playoffs starting the acquisition of a 27 year old center to go along with the over-30 core?? And you call the alternative of building through the draft indeterminate!? oh my ...

    Your plan sounds a lot like Bergevin's plan from 6 years ago ... and the results had the owner carnival barking at the season ending presser. Molson was by Bergevin's side because he's fully aware of the "economic realities" of such an ill-advised plan, when the team fails and there's no depth on the Farm to stop the bleeding.

    As much as i enjoyed reading your 'lottery ticket' strawman argument, the problem with it is that building through the draft, unlike the lottery ticket, is actually a widely accepted path to success. Anyone mystified by that shouldn't be discussing hockey at all. It isn't 1995. It's a young man's league, as someone else remarked, and players develop quickly. Players on ELC's are key contributors.
     
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  11. HBDay

    HBDay "I ****ing LOVE it"

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    Honestly the only realistic plan is to look to the youth. Build youth & talent. We can't un-duck our mistakes with a few trades.

    This next year is already a write off.

    Trade a few guy's for youth. Play a young in-experienced team. Hope for lightning in a bottle.
     
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  12. PhysicX

    PhysicX Registered User

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    Let's NOT trade our first and/or youth for O'Reilly.

    Like @HBDay just said, accept you're a bottom-of-the-barrel team for the upcoming year or years, draft properly, and develop the future of this franchise. No more retooling.
     
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  13. sandysan

    sandysan Registered User

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    yeah we all know that scouts can predict which players are going to pan out AND AT WHAT position. With 100% certainty.

    Say we adopt this plan and in 10 years we STILL don't have a center and there are no clear cut #1's that we can draft. then what ? pick BPA even if it doesnt address a need and NEVER try to address team weaknesses ? Precisely how do you think this works out ?

    We are going to make out team worse, on purpose on the outside chance that we either draft a generational player, OR that we select players that address extant needs and not just make some of our current players at that position expendible in order to rearrange deck chairs. Because we know that if we have a good scoring winger that we can absolutely flip him for a 1C, every day of the week.

    If we try to address the team's deficiencies we make progress and re-evaluate as we go along. We control the process. If the hope is that some kid in pee wee right now is gonna tear up the league as a rookie in a decade we have to tank, and hope to tank better than anyone else so that we get that kid based on balls being pulled out of a hat.

    Working hard is 100% better than allowing and even supporting a culture that losing is not only okay but needed.
    You play five years telling kids that its their job to lose, that doesnt evaporate over night and what you do is develop a team fill of players okay with losing ( see buffalo).
     
  14. Belial

    Belial Registered User

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    Ohhh this is great!

    I can already see Bergevin getting roasted for actually getting a center if he finally gets one. Can't make this up.

    Crosby doesn't make us a contender, why bother! The logic is astounding.

    Let's trade everyone suck for 10 years and hope we get lucky and draft another Price Weber and Pacioretty to get to the same level in the future.
     
  15. NotProkofievian

    NotProkofievian Registered User

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    Were you going to answer the question or just yell at clouds?
     
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  16. Belial

    Belial Registered User

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    I think it answers the question...

    If you can get ROR, you do it and figure out the rest after. Not sold on Stastny though.

    And I don't think Buf will want Poehling, they'll probably target a D. Mete/Juulsen.
     
  17. NotProkofievian

    NotProkofievian Registered User

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    Pretty much everyone in this thread admits that ROR would make this team instantly better. What people are worrying about is ''figuring out the rest after.'' Everyone also agrees that ROR doesn't get us to contention. I've asked this question about a million times already in this thread, what is the plan to take us from getting ROR to being a cup contender?

    If there's a plan, then fine. But if the furthest anyone's thought ahead is ''ROR MEKS US GUD!'' then I don't see why anyone should be convinced.
     
  18. Belial

    Belial Registered User

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    The difference between me and you is that I don't think this team is complete trash. I don't think this season is what this team is.

    ROR just turned 27, he should be good for another 5 years, you can build around that guy.
     
  19. NotProkofievian

    NotProkofievian Registered User

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    How? This is where the discussion is now. How do we build around ROR? What's the plan?

    You might not like tanking, but it's a logically coherent strategy. What is your strategy to build around ROR?
     
  20. ArtPeur

    ArtPeur Hindsight & memes

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    How about Galchenyuk + 1st pick 2018 (overall doesn't matter) for PLD. Can you believe it might happen? :/

    (I'm hoping not)
     
  21. 417

    417 Registered User

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    Well i'm just not quite sure what you're asking...

    By plan, do you mean what I would do this offseason?

    Or do I have to take the template you provided (trade 5th + Poehling for ROR)?

    Because to start, I would not include our 5th this year in any trade for ROR...i'm not sure what it would cost to acquire ROR, @Adam Michaels made a post I agree with where he suggested the Sabres/Habs could work out a deal based on ROR for Pacioretty as the basis, i'm not sure what else would have to be included to complete that deal, but let's say that's a start.

    1. Trade MP + for ROR + (again, not sure what that "+" is, some secondary pieces I suppose)
    2. Draft BPA @ #4 (hoping it's Wahlstrom)...unless of course the Habs win the lottery ;)
    3. Trade a couple of our 2nd round picks ++ for an established player (i.e. Coyle or Bjugstad)
    4. Look at trading one of Lehkonen/Byron/Hudon/Scherbak for a similarly valued Dman whose mobile
    5. Clean up the scouting staff, in particular the pro scouting staff
    6. Bring Bouchard/Ducharme onboard to handle the Laval Rocket
    7. Obviously make a major run at Tavares if he gets to free agency

    I guess that's a first stab at it...I don't think this makes us a Cup contender next year, but I think it's a step in that eventual direction.
     
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  22. NotProkofievian

    NotProkofievian Registered User

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    I just had a little rummage through the ROR mega thread and the Sabres are asking for one thing in exchange for ROR. A dman. A good dman. The specific proposal around Pacioretty was rejected due to the differences in term. ROR is signed for another 5 years, whereas Pacioretty is only under control for another 1 year. On that basis alone, Buffalo can't risk turning a 1B/2A center into nothing, so the compensation would have to be huge, anyways. Our most valuable trade chip is our first, so I don't think you can have ROR and our first. Let's say we trade them our first (likely 5 or 6 overall) and Juulsen. That provides them a likely 2nd pairing dman, and a decent shot at a first pairing dman.

    Now we have O'Reilly and we're a much better team right now. But what's the plan to build this new team, with O'Reilly, into a cup contender?

    Trading 2nds for Charlie Coyle? Trading our tweener wingers for tweener dmen?

    Where is the accumulation of elite talent coming from, especially since we're now a playoff team with ROR? We traded our first, we traded 2 2nds, we have a terrible prospect pool, and Weber + Price are no spring chickens.

    My point is this, with ROR, we still need a large influx of young elite talent to become contenders. But we lose the ability to acquire these assets both in acquiring ROR, and drafting later due to ROR's contributions. How do we solve that problem?
     
  23. DXStriker

    DXStriker Registered User

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    The Contract thing with Patches can be solved trading him Jul 1st with an extension if that was really a problem for Buf with ROR but i do think they probably want D for him .

    Although patches with Eichel could be lethal lol

    ROR for Patches(Extended) could be interesting depending how much we need to add
     
  24. 417

    417 Registered User

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    Like I said...I really don't know what the cost would be to acquire ROR and I don't think Sabres fans know either.

    To me...Pacioretty for ROR seems like a good base for a trade, doesn't mean either side wouldn't have to add certain elements to make it work.

    Like I said....in my scenario, i'm not trading our #4 pick & Poehling for ROR.

    But to answer your question, the goal of the moves I wrote down was not to turn us into a contender next year, I don't think that's realistic. The goal is to establish a better base to be able to compete down the line.

    It's hard to really talk about how we're going to accumulate elite talent...there's no quick and easy fix to turning this team into Cup contenders.

    Agreed...that is the conundrum that's facing Bergevin.

    But that's the position he's put himself into, he's going to bite the bullet in acquiring a center eventually...either in free agency $$$ or assets (trade picks & prospects & players).

    But at the very least, he's at least better positioned this year with a top 5 pick and 4 2nd round picks. Now you've got some currency.

    I don't think the task is impossible, but it requires foresight and creativity...2 things i've never associated with Bergevin.
     
  25. Adam Michaels

    Adam Michaels Registered User

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    I don't know why Montreal would need to add. They're offering one of the league's top scorers to play with their franchise center.
     

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