A conversation about the C position

[CHfan1]

Depends how you measure success.

Cup contenders? No. More likely to make the playoffs? Yes.

ROR would be our best center by a mile. He would make our wingers better and everybody putting their hopes on poehling, do people see his upside as being a higher ceiling than ROR is known to have? So if we wait for poehling ( and don't get the 1OA) we wait for another winger to hope they can contribute with a center known as TBD.

I am of the opinion that until we start to fix our lack of depth down the middle, doing anything else ( including waiting and hoping) is just spinning our wheels. If we draft BPA and wait by the time they can contribute, we might still have no center depth AND the positions we are currently set on ( goaltending and #1D) will be declining.
That's not an environment to help young kids develop.

That's not to say ROR is a salve, he alone won't make us contenders but he WILL make us better and WILL address long standing systemic deficiencies.

Unless you are similar to some of the hacks in the media (see Grant McCagg) I don’t know how as a Montreal Canadiens fan you can define success as just making the playoffs. Being a bonafide Cup contender is the only way this franchise is successful again.

Winning in April, May, and June is what matters most.

 

[habsfan909]

I simply dressed the best defence if no changes were made. Now if MB and CJ want to play someone else that's another matter.

I understand. I was just pointing out that we don't play the best lineup all the time. We play veterans who suck over youth. It's part of why we can't develop anything. Even if a guy is lucky enough to get called up, we stick him on the 4th line and make him into a checking forward. This has been going on for years.

 

[sandysan]

Unless you are similar to some of the hacks in the media (see Grant McCagg) I don’t know how as a Montreal Canadiens fan you can define success as just making the playoffs. Being a bonafide Cup contender is the only way this franchise is successful again.

Winning in April, May, and June is what matters most.

Yeah it's a freaking business and given the choice, lose ALL additional playoff revenue for years in hopes that we MIGHT MIGHT be dancing on St-Catherines some day in the future, what the hell would YOU do?

And if we don't fix our GAPING hole at center and wait and hope for Poehling to arrive who the HELL is going to mentor him?

When a patient is hemmoraging blood you stop the bleeding first. We don't acquire better centers and then throw rookies into that environment thinking it won't be detrimental to their development is as idiotic as thinking a one dimensional complimentary winger scratches our center itch.

Our best center in ( what could be a decade) could be David dehsirnais. You want that? I most certainly do not.
We have drafted a center and KIlLED his development as a center. And if poehling doesn't speak French who is to say we properly develop a player with a lower ceiling?

 

[habsfan909]

Yeah it's a freaking business and given the choice, lose ALL additional playoff revenue for years in hopes that we MIGHT MIGHT be dancing on St-Catherines some day in the future, what the hell would YOU do?

And if we don't fix our GAPING hole at center and wait and hope for Poehling to arrive who the HELL is going to mentor him?

When a patient is hemmoraging blood you stop the bleeding first. We don't acquire better centers and then throw rookies into that environment thinking it won't be detrimental to their development is as idiotic as thinking a one dimensional complimentary winger scratches our center itch.

Our best center in ( what could be a decade) could be David dehsirnais. You want that? I most certainly do not.
We have drafted a center and KIlLED his development as a center. And if poehling doesn't speak French who is to say we properly develop a player with a lower ceiling?

Even waiting for Poehling - his ceiling is supposed to be as a 2C. So what we have to wait another decade to hopefully draft a 1C. Go Habs GO! Cup in 2028.

 

[Cobra Commander]

MBs priorities:

1- Sign Tavares
2- Sign Stasny

If those 2 options fail for him he will become very desperate.


What MBs priorities should be:
(In no perticular order of importance)

1- Trade Price
2- Trade Weber
3- Trade Pacioretty
4- Trade Shaw
5- Trade Alzner
6- Trade Petry
7- Trade Shlemko

Take back good prospects, draft picks and bad contracts. Full rebuild.

 

[sandysan]

Even waiting for Poehling - his ceiling is supposed to be as a 2C. So what we have to wait another decade to hopefully draft a 1C. Go Habs GO! Cup in 2028.

Exactly, when in the hell did " I hope they suck for a decade to get competitive for a brief period as guys are in ELC's" become some sort of badge of honor?

Yeah let's suck out loud for ages in hopes we might, might ( against all evidence) be able to develop players to address persistent systemic needs.

 

[sandysan]

MBs priorities:

1- Sign Tavares
2- Sign Stasny

If those 2 options fail for him he will become very desperate.


What MBs priorities should be:
(In no perticular order of importance)

1- Trade Price
2- Trade Weber
3- Trade Pacioretty
4- Trade Shaw
5- Trade Alzner
6- Trade Petry
7- Trade Shlemko

Take back good prospects, draft picks and bad contracts. Full rebuild.

1) no trade clause
2) no 1D, great for our young D
3) down like James Brown
4) and get what?
5) see #4
6) yeah our defense needs to get demonstrably worse.
7) see #4.

Maybe we could accelerate the rebuild by selling low on the assets we DO have, you know accelerate how quickly we emulate an AHL team in hopes that some kid in peewee right now develops into the habs saviour.

Pass

 

[mariolemieux66]

1) no trade clause
2) no 1D, great for our young D
3) down like James Brown
4) and get what?
5) see #4
6) yeah our defense needs to get demonstrably worse.
7) see #4.

Maybe we could accelerate the rebuild by selling low on the assets we DO have, you know accelerate how quickly we emulate an AHL team in hopes that some kid in peewee right now develops into the habs saviour.

Pass

You think Price wants to play here after MB press conference?
He mighy pull what he did when he wanted Therrien fire, which means Bergevin gets fire and the team lose a year for nothing or Price ask for a trade.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Depends how you measure success.

Cup contenders? No. More likely to make the playoffs? Yes.

ROR would be our best center by a mile. He would make our wingers better and everybody putting their hopes on poehling, do people see his upside as being a higher ceiling than ROR is known to have? So if we wait for poehling ( and don't get the 1OA) we wait for another winger to hope they can contribute with a center known as TBD.

I am of the opinion that until we start to fix our lack of depth down the middle, doing anything else ( including waiting and hoping) is just spinning our wheels. If we draft BPA and wait by the time they can contribute, we might still have no center depth AND the positions we are currently set on ( goaltending and #1D) will be declining.
That's not an environment to help young kids develop.

That's not to say ROR is a salve, he alone won't make us contenders but he WILL make us better and WILL address long standing systemic deficiencies.

This has sort of emerged as the fundamental issue surrounding this question. It's sort of rare for everyone on hfboards to agree about something, and yet we all agree that the moves outlined in the OP do not make us a contender. I think we can all also agree that the goal is to be a contender. But those two things being the case, how does trading away our top prospect and a potentially top 5 pick contribute to the building which is necessary given that ROR will have not made us a contender?

 

[LaP]

You think Price wants to play here after MB press conference?
He mighy pull what he did when he wanted Therrien fire, which means Bergevin gets fire and the team lose a year for nothing or Price ask for a trade.

Well actually MB being fired and having a 2nd top 5 in a row would not be that bad

 

[Cobra Commander]

1) no trade clause
2) no 1D, great for our young D
3) down like James Brown
4) and get what?
5) see #4
6) yeah our defense needs to get demonstrably worse.
7) see #4.

Maybe we could accelerate the rebuild by selling low on the assets we DO have, you know accelerate how quickly we emulate an AHL team in hopes that some kid in peewee right now develops into the habs saviour.

Pass

We could contend within 3-4 years, a full rebuild is the fastest way to fix this mess. Will be funny having Lucic in Montreal.

 

[sandysan]

You think Price wants to play here after MB press conference?
He mighy pull what he did when he wanted Therrien fire, which means Bergevin gets fire and the team lose a year for nothing or Price ask for a trade.

He gets paid either way, and he can suck out loud to stick it to MB.

His contract makes it hard to move and if we have to retain some of his salary then that is waving the white flag which is the one thing they won't do.

We are likely screwed either way but does not wanting to be royally screwed for long periods of time make me a bad fan and people hoping for some possible thing that might happen in the future a good one?

Sucking for long periods is no guarantee that we come out the other side better.

 

[CHfan1]

Yeah it's a freaking business and given the choice, lose ALL additional playoff revenue for years in hopes that we MIGHT MIGHT be dancing on St-Catherines some day in the future, what the hell would YOU do?

And if we don't fix our GAPING hole at center and wait and hope for Poehling to arrive who the HELL is going to mentor him?

When a patient is hemmoraging blood you stop the bleeding first. We don't acquire better centers and then throw rookies into that environment thinking it won't be detrimental to their development is as idiotic as thinking a one dimensional complimentary winger scratches our center itch.

Our best center in ( what could be a decade) could be David dehsirnais. You want that? I most certainly do not.
We have drafted a center and KIlLED his development as a center. And if poehling doesn't speak French who is to say we properly develop a player with a lower ceiling?

So we trade our top pick for a low end #1 centreman in ROR and hope they make the playoffs? The prospect pool is horrible and needs to be restocked. They need elite players. That is how teams win in the NHL. They win building their teams though the draft.

I also don’t care about playoff revenue as a fan, I care about championships.

 

[sandysan]

We could contend within 3-4 years, a full rebuild is the fastest way to fix this mess. Will be funny having Lucic in Montreal.

We could contend on a team with, presumably, galchenyuk as our best player and the rest of the team who currently have 0 games of NHL experience?

Who is our goalie?
Who ( without Weber) is our 1D?
Who plays center ? Is it still Drouin?

Ahl teams three years later are not contenders.

 

[LaP]

We could contend within 3-4 years, a full rebuild is the fastest way to fix this mess. Will be funny having Lucic in Montreal.

Weber for Lucic, Edmonton's first 2018 and Edmonton's first 2019 .

 

[mariolemieux66]

He gets paid either way, and he can suck out loud to stick it to MB.

His contract makes it hard to move and if we have to retain some of his salary then that is waving the white flag which is the one thing they won't do.

We are likely screwed either way but does not wanting to be royally screwed for long periods of time make me a bad fan and people hoping for some possible thing that might happen in the future a good one?

Sucking for long periods is no guarantee that we come out the other side better.

We will need to suck at some point anyway, we have nothing in our prospect pool. May as well do it now while Price and Weber still have some value, because in a couple of season we can forget about it. We need to tank, accumulate draft picks and rebuild.

 

[sandysan]

So we trade our top pick for a low end #1 centreman in ROR and hope they make the playoffs? The prospect pool is horrible and needs to be restocked. They need elite players. That is how teams win in the NHL. They win building their teams though the draft.

I also don’t care about playoff revenue as a fan, I care about championships.

We get ROR to address a complete lack of centers for the last 6 years. To stop the bleeding AND to help our wingers with some support.

And when you own a team, you can spend your own damn money to chase a dragon in hopes it works out. Your desires as a fan don't Trump the realities of running a billion dollar business. I'm sure you would really like to ride in the parade as well, that wish and two bucks gets you a cup of coffee.

 

[Kimota]

1) no trade clause
2) no 1D, great for our young D
3) down like James Brown
4) and get what?
5) see #4
6) yeah our defense needs to get demonstrably worse.
7) see #4.

Maybe we could accelerate the rebuild by selling low on the assets we DO have, you know accelerate how quickly we emulate an AHL team in hopes that some kid in peewee right now develops into the habs saviour.

Pass

A full rebuild is Scorched Earth. What really matters is you get rid of all the big contracts for prospects and picks. And when most of the guys are gone, those with NTC will want to leave too.

 

[habsfan909]

Exactly, when in the hell did " I hope they suck for a decade to get competitive for a brief period as guys are in ELC's" become some sort of badge of honor?

Yeah let's suck out loud for ages in hopes we might, might ( against all evidence) be able to develop players to address persistent systemic needs.

Truth is Habs will continue to fight for mediocrity - as they have the last couple decades. I'm afraid it will be many more years before they realize how necessary a proper rebuild is. The longer Bergevin is in charge, the more years you can add before we become a contender. For every year of Bergevin, we lose about 2-3 years on our time frame for contending.

 

[sandysan]

A full rebuild is Scorched Earth. What really matters is you get rid of all the big contracts for prospects and picks. And when most of the guys are gone, those with NTC will want to leave too.

Prospects we hope to develop like we did Galchenyuk? 10 years of sucking and hoping players fill into team needs?

Yeah who WOULD'NT be down for that? Because what we want to do is take the players who want to stick around and turn the ship around, what we need to do is crush their spirits so that what we want is buffalo where losing became accepted in order to hope that what's behind door number two saves us from ourselves.

What's behind door number two could be anything, it could even be a boat!

 

[mariolemieux66]

Prospects we hope to develop like we did Galchenyuk? 10 years of sucking and hoping players fill into team needs?

Yeah who WOULD'NT be down for that? Because what we want to do is take the players who want to stick around and turn the ship around, what we need to do is crush their spirits so that what we want is buffalo where losing became accepted in order to hope that what's behind door number two saves us from ourselves.

What's behind door number two could be anything, it could even be a boat!

What we have been doing for the last 20+ years isn't working, so what is wrong with trying something completely different for the next 5 years?

 

[CHfan1]

We get ROR to address a complete lack of centers for the last 6 years. To stop the bleeding AND to help our wingers with some support.

And when you own a team, you can spend your own damn money to chase a dragon in hopes it works out. Your desires as a fan don't Trump the realities of running a billion dollar business. I'm sure you would really like to ride in the parade as well, that wish and two bucks gets you a cup of coffee.

So as a fan I’m not allowed to state my opinions because I don’t own the team. Of course I know I can’t effect the direction of the team. Just state which way I prefer it to go just like you who prefers to trade the Habs first round pick for ROR, and, imo, toil in mediocrity for the next few years.

One question for you does trading for ROR make the Habs a contender? It would mean they have zero elite prospects and their top 3 players are on the wrong side of 30.

 

[Cobra Commander]

We could contend on a team with, presumably, galchenyuk as our best player and the rest of the team who currently have 0 games of NHL experience?

Who is our goalie?
Who ( without Weber) is our 1D?
Who plays center ? Is it still Drouin?

Ahl teams three years later are not contenders.

Niemi / Lindgren
1D, who cares right now
Switch Drouin for Galchenyuk at 1C

We could bring in free agents or make the right trades when the time is right.

 

[sandysan]

So as a fan I’m not allowed to state my opinions because I don’t own the team. Of course I know I can’t effect the direction of the team. Just state which way I prefer it to go just like you who prefers to trade the Habs first round pick for ROR, and, imo, toil in mediocrity for the next few years.

One question for you does trading for ROR make the Habs a contender? It would mean they have zero elite prospects and their top 3 players are on the wrong side of 30.

You are free to say what you want. Thinking that what you want Trump's the very real and clear economic realities of a private company, not so much.

Molson given the choice of making the playoffs for 10 years an no cup, OR no playoffs with some indeterminate chance of a cup gets to make that decision, it's HIS dime not yours.

Personally I 'd like to address systemic deficiencies and get better, even if it is slow. Don't let the good be the enemy of the great. Don't get into a system that codifies losing for some indeterminate potential benefit that is almost exclusively our of our direct control.

If you are struggling financially, selling your car to buy lottery tickets is appropriately described as idiotically irresponsible. Why you want to apply this and think it's justified mystefies me.

 

[Scriptor]

It's going to be difficult to make the type of moves we'll need to be a contender next year.

It's going to have to be a process...we can't just dismiss options because they don't turn us into contenders on their own.

Smartest comment on this board in a while.