A conversation about the C position

[Bring Bak Damphousse]

How do you even come out with that conclusion with what the poster said?

There's a lot more legitimate theories out there other than your theory of purposely sabotaging Galchenyuk's career. Plain incompetence is one of them. Favoritism towards french canadians for PR reason is another one.

Fully expected to have the meaning of my post twisted around, couldnt agree more with the points you brought up.

 

[Bring Bak Damphousse]

Here's an alternate theory: Bergevin doesn't know what he's doing. He refuses to allow his coach to try him at center because in his mind, he's 100% sure Galchenyuk isn't a center.

Its all about not wanting to be proven wrong at this point, galchenyuk goes on the score 75 pts as a center and MB has to put up with the questioning of why he wasnt used there earlier. Every thing I’ve seen and heard from MB points to him suffering from some sort of Napolean complex, Chucky isnt a center because MB said hes not, its f***ing ridiculous.



Edit: sorry OP, didnt mean to derail

 

[Shabs]

We are in la la Land here but tavares and ROR does make this team a potential contender. Peices just start falling into place where they should be through a domino effect... Which means guys like drouin, galchenyuk, lehkoben,hudon etc, all have improved numbers.

The focus then would shift to finding another top 4 puck moving dman, which is the easier part.

Maybe. I would like to believe you, but just look at the names you listed: none of them scream “playoff warrior” to me.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Not far (1st round exit maybe 2nd round) and this would be terrible. ROR is not worth a top 5 pick and a good prospect on top of it.

The center line would still be average. Better but not strong. Buffalo is losing with ROR and Eichel ... We would still be missing a LHD. And this is if Mete blossom into a top 4 if not then we are missing two. It would still be an aging team with a very short window. Without the first pick and with Poehling traded our prospects pool would be abyssal and by far the worst in the whole league. So no help would be coming from that pool in the next 5 years (outside of maybe one 2nd pairing dman). With an aging team this would be a bad combo.

Two things could kick start this team this summer :

1) Drafting first overall. Dahlin would more than likely solve the problems we have with this defense. He would make a good first pairing with Weber for the next 3-4 years and Mete would be fine with Petry. Then when Weber would get old Dahlin would be ready to carry the likes of Juulsen, Fleury or Brooks on a first pairing and Mete would make a fine 2nd pairing with Weber. There's the possibility Dahlin will flop but this is unlikely to happen.

2) Signing Tavares. Tavares is not the be all end all guy. He's no Crosby or McJesus. But he's a damn good 1st line center who carried to stardom some pretty *** average wingers over his career. He'll be overpaid but if you want to win you got to be ready to overpay your star players and cut the corners with 1 million guys like Byron, Hudon and Lehkonen in your bottom 6. That's how it is with a salary cap. Tavares will only be 28 next season so he got some years left. I would say at least 5-6 years very easily and probably more if you are not unlucky. He is imo a step better than ROR without any doubt and ROR is overpaid himself anyway.

Then the defense would be set for many years unless Dahlin would flop. We got good young wingers like Drouin, AG and Gallagher. We would still be missing a 2nd line center but Poehling could develop into one and we got lot of 2nd rounders and Patch available this summer to make something happens.

Outside of those two things happening we should rebuild and not try to fix things up with a plan B. You don't trade a top 5 pick for a plan B.

My favourite finnish word is ''Niin.'' It can mean many things depending on the context, but when you're listening to someone explain something, you say it to express agreement. Like ''mhm. mhm. werd.''

So my response to you is this: niin.

 

[habsfan909]

Maybe. I would like to believe you, but just look at the names you listed: none of them scream “playoff warrior” to me.

Yes but we also have 3 playoff warriors in Schlemko, Benn and Alzner!! Legend has it that they will be able to skate at a full 1 km/h in the playoffs.

 

[NobleSix]

Trading a top 5 pick and Poehling for a 2nd line center, albeit a very good one, is a complete non-starter for me. No way.

O'Rielly doesn't transform this team into a contender by himself. We would still have next to no assets to trade to improve the offense more and/or improve our terrible defense. Although the move would improve our team in the short term, it would cripple our future without really improving the team enough to seriously compete anyway.

We should be building our future up, because as far as I'm concerned, there is no way to propel this team to contender status in the short term outside of rediculous unforseen luck. Rebuilding this team through the draft and trading established older assets like Pacioretty, Weber, etc for young talent is the only way at this point.

This is the reality of the situation that our GM has put us in through years of poor drafting, neglect, and bad trades.

 

[Habs Icing]

We’d be improved up the middle, no question. Assuming we keep Patches and Galchenyuk, which I guess we will since we moved Poehling and our first, we may be stronger offensively and I’ll be optimistic and say we solved that problem.

However, while we’ll win more face offs, our defence is the same. Maybe it’ll be better next year of certain youngsters progress and Weber is 100%. However, it’s still too slow as a group and no real dynamic puck mover back there.

Anyhow, say if everything is status quo, plus ROR and Statsny, we will be better and I think a 98pt team, so a playoff team most likely. However, we still lack high-end talent both up front and in back. Since we dumped Poehling and our first, our prospect pool will continue to be unimpressive.

What this means although we are better next season, we’ll be right back where we are in 2-3 years.

Let's say the Idiot makes no moves on defence. We would have:

Mete Weber
Reilly Petry
Alzner Juulsen

That is not a slow defence - it may be other things but it is not slow. And I see 4 puck movers. Maybe not dynamic. It would worry me a tad come the playoffs though.

 

[habsfan909]

Let's say the Idiot makes no moves on defence. We would have:

Mete Weber
Reilly Petry
Alzner Juulsen

That is not a slow defence - it may be other things but it is not slow. And I see 4 puck movers. Maybe not dynamic. It would worry me a tad come the playoffs though.

You're aware they would play Benn and Schlemko ahead of Juulsen and Reilly right? This is the Habs... We play old, slow veterans over fast youth.

 

[MaxDummy]

Let's say the Idiot makes no moves on defence. We would have:

Mete Weber
Reilly Petry
Alzner Juulsen

That is not a slow defence - it may be other things but it is not slow. And I see 4 puck movers. Maybe not dynamic. It would worry me a tad come the playoffs though.

Reilly isn't a top 4, hell he might not even be a good top 6 D. Mete will get by with Weber but wont play #2 minutes.

That D is still really bad

 

[Habs Icing]

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Bergevin gets his things in order and he finally gets us that big centerman that we've always wanted. His name is Ryan O'Reilly, and we had to trade our first, and Poehling for him. And then Bergevin goes out and he signs Stastny.

Where do you think this gets us? If you would like him to do such a thing, tell us why. Let's have a conversation.

For me that's Plan C or D. I would make a concentrated effort for Tavares and Stastny or Bozak. They're free when it comes to giving up assets and really only cost money and term. That 1st and Poehling I would hold onto them. I want to rid the team of Captain Ready. Although I ridiculed MB because of his attitude comments but I believe there is a germ of truth to his assessment and one of those germs was Pacioretty.

 

[Habs100]

Its all about not wanting to be proven wrong at this point, galchenyuk goes on the score 75 pts as a center and MB has to put up with the questioning of why he wasnt used there earlier. Every thing I’ve seen and heard from MB points to him suffering from some sort of Napolean complex, Chucky isnt a center because MB said hes not, its ****ing ridiculous.



Edit: sorry OP, didnt mean to derail

The answer to those questions is easy: Galchenyuk's putting up 75 points now because he's been groomed properly. He's learned the defensive game and we put him at center when he was ready to help and not hurt the team.

That's not the reason he's not at center. Especially when Marc Bergevin's job depends on team success, and team success depends on having good centers.

 

[Habs Icing]

You're aware they would play Benn and Schlemko ahead of Juulsen and Reilly right? This is the Habs... We play old, slow veterans over fast youth.

I simply dressed the best defence if no changes were made. Now if MB and CJ want to play someone else that's another matter.

 

[MaxDummy]

To answer the OP

With both Oreilly and Stastny we make the playoffs (if no serious long term injuries)

It isn’t enough to win anything tho and Stastny will decline hard. It has already begun. The guy is already 32.

 

[Habs100]

Mete Weber
Reilly Petry
Alzner Juulsen

Reilly isn't a top 4, hell he might not even be a good top 6 D. Mete will get by with Weber but wont play #2 minutes.

That D is still really bad

That d depends on how much better(or worse) Mete, Reilly and Juulsen will be next year. The bottom pairing of Alzner Juulsen should be solid. As for Mete and Reilly:

Mete will be a year older and a year stronger. He seemed better the 2nd half than the first. But, he's still young and might not be ready to play d against the opposition's best forwards.

Reilly is a lot like Morrow and Beaulieu. The upside is there, but can he defend well enough to fill in on a 2nd pair?

 

[CHwest]

Trading a top 5 pick and Poehling for a 2nd line center, albeit a very good one, is a complete non-starter for me. No way.

O'Rielly doesn't transform this team into a contender by himself. We would still have next to no assets to trade to improve the offense more and/or improve our terrible defense. Although the move would improve our team in the short term, it would cripple our future without really improving the team enough to seriously compete anyway.

We should be building our future up, because as far as I'm concerned, there is no way to propel this team to contender status in the short term outside of rediculous unforseen luck. Rebuilding this team through the draft and trading established older assets like Pacioretty, Weber, etc for young talent is the only way at this point.

This is the reality of the situation that our GM has put us in through years of poor drafting, neglect, and bad trades.

X2 that trade would be the epitome of stupid. Best course of action is to suck it up and suck for a few years. I am not interested in continually getting older, every time we trade a draft pick or a young prospect we lose in the age dept. We gave up, what 4 yrs. in Weber, three year in Drouin . You cannot continually get older, especially when you suck, to have a chance at a cup maybe, but we are not even in the conversation.

 

[Habs Icing]

Reilly isn't a top 4, hell he might not even be a good top 6 D. Mete will get by with Weber but wont play #2 minutes.

That D is still really bad

The other poster said we had a slow defence with no dynamic puck movers. I was simply showing that the D is not slow and has 4 puck movers. Granted they're not really dynamic. Whether it's a bad D or not would have to be seen during the year. I would say it's an average defence. 12th-15th overall.

 

[Habs100]

If the Habs trade a 1st + Poehling for ROR...then I don't see why they'd then need to go out and sign Stastsny.

I can't see signing Statsny hurting us. But I also can't see Statsny signing with us.

 

[Habs Icing]

That d depends on how much better(or worse) Mete, Reilly and Juulsen will be next year. The bottom pairing of Alzner Juulsen should be solid. As for Mete and Reilly:

Mete will be a year older and a year stronger. He seemed better the 2nd half than the first. But, he's still young and might not be ready to play d against the opposition's best forwards.

Reilly is a lot like Morrow and Beaulieu. The upside is there, but can he defend well enough to fill in on a 2nd pair?

Have you seen Morrow play with the Jets? He wasn't half as bad as many of you were making him out to be. Here in Montreal it was a combination of a weakened defence corps through injuries coupled with bad player acquisition (Markov, Emelin) and Price soiling the bed

 

[montreal]

The Habs have so many questions they need to answer.

1. Price. It starts and ends with Price. If he's not one of the best goalies in the league, we won't go anywhere. So if he bounces back then we will be much better if he doesn't then we are f***ed. You can't have 10.5M tied up on a shitty player.

2. Weber. What will he be like? Slower?, or will the injury not impact him in any way?, will he be good for the 17-20 goals a year?

3. Offense from the blueline. Without Weber we had 25 goals from our blueline. 12 of those were from Petry, who if Weber is back will likely not put up that kind of production but still should be good for 25+ points hopefully. The questions marks are Reilly, Mete and Juulsen. I would put Reilly with Weber, since his defensive game is worse then Mete's so Weber would be able to help him while his mobility, passing would help Weber. Reilly put up 8 pts in 19 games with us, Mete 7 pts in 49 games.

Now having Reilly and Mete to go with Petry gives us more pucking moving and speed but aside from Weber/Petry the goals maybe hard to come by. We know we are stuck with Alzner. If Mete/Juulsen make the Habs then someone will need to be traded. They can send Benn to the AHL and he will barely cost anything against the cap. Schlemko would be a solid 7th D though.

4. If we got ROR and Stastny, it would greatly improve our center depth for sure. But they would need to trade a winger for him, first I would never give up a top 5 pick for him not with all the question marks it's too risky. It's got to be Pac, Drouin or Galchenyuk. As you have 2 of Pac, Drouin, Galchenyuk then you have Gallagher, Hudon, Lehkonen, Byron and Scherbak that should all be in the top 9. Plus Shaw who you could put on the 4th line.

 

[Dominator13]

I can' think of MB and centers without getting mad. I look at guys like Dubois in Columbus and Barzal in NY, thinking that they'd be playing wing here to "learn how to defend".

If that baffoon does make a trade, I hope it's for Galchenyuk so we can watch him florish as a Center and get Bargain bin outta here for good.

 

[GHJimmy]

I wouldn't trade any of our prospects like Poehling, he could probably be 40-50 point in couple years plus he has a long future a head of him and ROR is aging and probably only couple years left so no I don't accept ROR he wouldn't be a point getter anymore

 

[sandviper]

Let's say the Idiot makes no moves on defence. We would have:

Mete Weber
Reilly Petry
Alzner Juulsen

That is not a slow defence - it may be other things but it is not slow. And I see 4 puck movers. Maybe not dynamic. It would worry me a tad come the playoffs though.

Well, that’s making the assumption the 3 youngsters progress and build on this past year. Given how it went, I suppose it can only look up.

Also, that isn’t a strong top-4. Plugging in quicker skaters doesn’t mean it’s a stronger group. You said this is what you would do but who knows what CJ would do. Let’s just assume worst case scenario:

Schlemko - Weber
Alzner - Petry
Reilly/Mete - Benn

That D-core just got dog ass slow again.

 

[Kimota]

We shouldn't even be thinking about centers, it should the furthest thing from the Habs's minds. You cannot completely change this team overnight no matter what. Even with Radu and Markov we couldn't beat the lowly Rangers. We should trade the big salaries Price/Weber/Max and rebuild.

 

[Habs100]

Have you seen Morrow play with the Jets? He wasn't half as bad as many of you were making him out to be. Here in Montreal it was a combination of a weakened defence corps through injuries coupled with bad player acquisition (Markov, Emelin) and Price soiling the bed

I've seen some of the highlights from Winnepeg. Before he was traded I was in favor of seeing if he could turn it around.

He's got great skills, but he makes the worst decisions sometimes. He would cover the wrong guy or weakly cross check a guy in front of the net, instead of lifting his stick, and let the guy score. That's not the dcore's fault. He's responsible to use his own brain cells, if he has enough of them.

Just because he's had a good stretch in Winnipeg doesn't mean it will last. Time will tell.f

So far, my best guess is he's a defenseman version of Benoit Pouliot. He has all the physical talent and skills, but something's missing upstairs.

 

[sandysan]

Is there anyone willing to argue that there's no way we wouldn't be successful if only we had ROR on the team?

Depends how you measure success.

Cup contenders? No. More likely to make the playoffs? Yes.

ROR would be our best center by a mile. He would make our wingers better and everybody putting their hopes on poehling, do people see his upside as being a higher ceiling than ROR is known to have? So if we wait for poehling ( and don't get the 1OA) we wait for another winger to hope they can contribute with a center known as TBD.

I am of the opinion that until we start to fix our lack of depth down the middle, doing anything else ( including waiting and hoping) is just spinning our wheels. If we draft BPA and wait by the time they can contribute, we might still have no center depth AND the positions we are currently set on ( goaltending and #1D) will be declining.
That's not an environment to help young kids develop.

That's not to say ROR is a salve, he alone won't make us contenders but he WILL make us better and WILL address long standing systemic deficiencies.