OT: 59th Obsequious Banter Thread: (Giroux + Simmonds + Couturier + Voracek + Patrick + Sanheim) ÷ Gudas

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whitstifier

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I hope you're not implying that's an accurate description of me, because that's absolutely not the case.

When I say SJW I'm not talking about people who want equality among different genders or races or whatever. I'm talking about the crazy ones who say insane things like simply being male or white or heterosexual makes you evil.

Not really. Just considering a possibility.

SJWs don't exist, though.

I think being white and male makes it difficult to understand perspectives of people of color and non male people. White males aren't evil, just more likely to be ignorant of social conditions of other groups. I feel that many white men aren't used to having their belief systems challenged, so they can view objections to certain behaviors as hostile. There's also much frustration from communities about constantly having to explain what they're about to white men who don't take the time to understand cultural/social differences.
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
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I am sure that would be denied because of the risk of triggering someone over having no safe space.

Yeah...as opposed to in Boy Scouts...what bad could happen to a single girl around a bunch of adolescent boys.

I honestly don't see why they can't have them separate, but evolve to do things that the opposite group usually do. I just don't see why you HAVE to mix boys and girl in everything. Especially when they can alter the Guides/Brownies events to do the exact same things the Boy Scouts do.

I just think the world has gone too PC where everyone has to feel included even if there is a logical reason not to. But in the end, this won't effect my life but it still bugs me...lol.
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
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Not really. Just considering a possibility.

SJWs don't exist, though.

I think being white and male makes it difficult to understand perspectives of people of color and non male people. White males aren't evil, just more likely to be ignorant of social conditions of other groups. I feel that many white men aren't used to having their belief systems challenged, so they can view objections to certain behaviors as hostile. There's also much frustration from communities about constantly having to explain what they're about to white men who don't take the time to understand cultural/social differences.

Don't exist? I'm speaking of a specific type of person that absolutely does exist. If you'd prefer a different label then fine, but I use that label because it's the most common term used to refer to who I'm talking about.

As far as different perspectives... I have no idea how that relates to what I said. I don't need to be able to perfectly understand anyone else's perspective to accuse them of saying stupid shit. Like I said, I'm specifically talking about the people who say ridiculous things that I'm sure we could all agree is insane, like the example I gave. These people absolutely do exist and they really do believe the stupid things they say, unfortunately. For some reason you seem to think I'm talking about anyone who discusses equality or similar topics, which obviously isn't the case.

As for the bolded, if you're going to say that then you also must believe the opposite is true, that those people can't possibly understand the perspectives or cultural/social differences of white men. Either nobody is capable of seeing others perspectives or everybody can, can't be one or the other.
 

Lotusflower

Tha Snake, Tha Rat, Tha Cat, Tha Dog
Dec 23, 2013
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I think being white and male makes it difficult to understand perspectives of people of color and non male people. White males aren't evil, just more likely to be ignorant of social conditions of other groups. I feel that many white men aren't used to having their belief systems challenged, so they can view objections to certain behaviors as hostile. There's also much frustration from communities about constantly having to explain what they're about to white men who don't take the time to understand cultural/social differences.
Deep
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whitstifier

Honor Black Excellence in Hockey
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Don't exist? I'm speaking of a specific type of person that absolutely does exist. If you'd prefer a different label then fine, but I use that label because it's the most common term used to refer to who I'm talking about.

As far as different perspectives... I have no idea how that relates to what I said. I don't need to be able to perfectly understand anyone else's perspective to accuse them of saying stupid ****. Like I said, I'm specifically talking about the people who say ridiculous things that I'm sure we could all agree is insane, like the example I gave. These people absolutely do exist and they really do believe the stupid things they say, unfortunately. For some reason you seem to think I'm talking about anyone who discusses equality or similar topics, which obviously isn't the case.

As for the bolded, if you're going to say that then you also must believe the opposite is true, that those people can't possibly understand the perspectives or cultural/social differences of white men. Either nobody is capable of seeing others perspectives or everybody can, can't be one or the other.

Yeah, I'm having difficulty understanding what you're trying to say.

Who are you talking about specifically? What stupid shit do they say?

Hmm... I didn't mean to set up a binary. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to attack white men here. I don't think it's possible for anyone to fully understand another's perspective. This is true for those who identify similarly as well.
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,442
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Yeah, I'm having difficulty understanding what you're trying to say.

Who are you talking about specifically? What stupid **** do they say?

Hmm... I didn't mean to set up a binary. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to attack white men here. I don't think it's possible for anyone to fully understand another's perspective. This is true for those who identify similarly as well.
I'm specifically talking about the kinds of people (and they come in every race, gender, sexual orientation) who say insane, illogical, inflammatory things.

Like the type of people who literally say white/straight/men are evil and are the source of all problems in the world. All of them. If not through the direct oppression of everyone else, by their white privilege.

I've seen people say that you shouldn't say "good boy" or "good girl" to your dog because they can't tell you which gender they identify as.... that you're oppressing them by misgendering them.

The ones who say that non-Japanese people shouldn't eat sushi because it's "appropriating Japanese culture".

Stuff like that. Things that are pretty much considered insane by everyone with a shred of common sense.

The kinda of people who would freak out about the Boy Scouts just for the fact that they have the word "Boy" in their name. As if it was an anti-woman hate/oppression group.
 

whitstifier

Honor Black Excellence in Hockey
Mar 19, 2013
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I'm specifically talking about the kinds of people (and they come in every race, gender, sexual orientation) who say insane, illogical, inflammatory things.

Like the type of people who literally say white/straight/men are evil and are the source of all problems in the world. All of them. If not through the direct oppression of everyone else, by their white privilege.

I've seen people say that you shouldn't say "good boy" or "good girl" to your dog because they can't tell you which gender they identify as.... that you're oppressing them by misgendering them.

The ones who say that non-Japanese people shouldn't eat sushi because it's "appropriating Japanese culture".

Stuff like that. Things that are pretty much considered insane by everyone with a shred of common sense.

The kinda of people who would freak out about the Boy Scouts just for the fact that they have the word "Boy" in their name. As if it was an anti-woman hate/oppression group.

Eh, okay. Most of those comments seem pretty harmless. That's not to say I agree, just think they're easy to shrug off and forget about.

As for the argument that "white men are evil and the source of all the problems in the world." Who says that?
 

sa cyred

Running Data Models
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I will say this before this could potentially get shut down by the mods. Good job being civil on the conversation. Unlike the politics board where if you disagree on something you can get your throat slit.
 
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Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
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Eh, okay. Most of those comments seem pretty harmless. That's not to say I agree, just think they're easy to shrug off and forget about.

As for the argument that "white men are evil and the source of all the problems in the world." Who says that?
Yeah, they're harmless because nobody other than equally insane people take it seriously... except for some companies.

And I've seen people on various social media sources say those things.
 

whitstifier

Honor Black Excellence in Hockey
Mar 19, 2013
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Yeah, they're harmless because nobody other than equally insane people take it seriously.

And I've seen people on various social media sources say those things.

I feel like you're getting too caught up in trolling. If not that, then you might be reading too literally into emotional responses by frustrated people.
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,442
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Pennsylvania
I feel like you're getting too caught up in trolling. If not that, then you might be reading too literally into emotional responses by frustrated people.
I thought it was trolling too, but some are actually serious.

And it doesn't actually annoy me until I see other people taking it seriously. When I thought the Boy Scouts were I was more in disbelief than anything. The first place I got the news was twitter and the person made it sound like this was the cause of the change, which I obviously then learned was not true.

Honestly this conversation here is the longest I've ever thought about it at one time. I see it pop up, laugh at its absurdity, then move on and don't encounter it again for weeks. It's not like I'm sitting here reading about it and researching it. :laugh:
 

Lotusflower

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Dec 23, 2013
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I'm specifically talking about the kinds of people (and they come in every race, gender, sexual orientation) who say insane, illogical, inflammatory things.

Like the type of people who literally say white/straight/men are evil and are the source of all problems in the world. All of them. If not through the direct oppression of everyone else, by their white privilege.

I've seen people say that you shouldn't say "good boy" or "good girl" to your dog because they can't tell you which gender they identify as.... that you're oppressing them by misgendering them.

The ones who say that non-Japanese people shouldn't eat sushi because it's "appropriating Japanese culture".

Stuff like that. Things that are pretty much considered insane by everyone with a shred of common sense.

The kinda of people who would freak out about the Boy Scouts just for the fact that they have the word "Boy" in their name. As if it was an anti-woman hate/oppression group.

Valid points but lets be honest how many of these types of people do you encounter in your life? Does their perspetive really reach out and touch your life in any meaningful way? Yet youre the one annoyed? Have you ever wondered why that is? I think the poster you quoted was remarking that the people rallying against SJWs are often far more excoriating and representative of the mass population in their reactionary criticisms than the SJWs are in their particular brand of activism.

Take Antifa for example, who I dont agree with and who I assume would fit into your categorization. How many active members can Antifa say it has? How much power do they and their allies wield domestically? Internationally? Minimal. The idea that oppressed communities somehow have the power to pressure the status quo into changing their views on a whim is asinine. They're oppressed; they have to be in the trenches organizing, rallying, and indeed sometimes kneeling in ways often ostentatious in order to get anyone to listen to their perspective because theyre the ones on the bottom.

The opposite of that is the white supremacist. Their power domestically, internationally, is sound. Its proven. Look no further than who we have in the White House who was endorsed by the KKK. They can afford to sit back and manuever in silence because they have the high ground.

The people that say white men are evil, etc. are an innocuous threat. They have no power to make their claims a reality. The opposite has power and their views are made kinetic in the lives of oppressed people across this country every day.

Systemic racism is not some historical boogeyman that went away when MLK marched in DC. It is a continuing legacy that dominates US foreign and domestic policy, business and economics, and cultural exchanges. By ignoring this reality you activate the power of those with the high ground. Those who you claim to be against.

I think there are certain PC concepts that miss the point of the argument and distract of course but the underlying theme which is a greater emphasis on empathizing with historically oppressed communties as opposed to ignoring and dehumanizing their struggles, is completely valid and should be the goal of every self professed proud American. Of course people's egos and sense of self are often caught up in these antiquated ways of thinking and so the leap towards true empathy with their fellow americans is too large.

One more thing. Do you really believe that POC dont understand the perspective of whites better than vice versa? White supremacy is the dominant feature of historical American culture. People of color are forced to conform to a society where the basic unit of humanity is a white, heteronormative one. POC must intimately know the perspective of whites in order to have any chance to survive and prosper. Even if they play the game they still have an uphill climb.

If you need clarification on any of this I would be happy to elaborate further.
 

Hurricane28

Angry Flyers STH/Weather Guy
Aug 22, 2012
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Civil Conversations like these don’t exist anymore in 2017. It’s quite sad actually. I hate modern politics overall because government is political party first, needs of the people 2nd. It’s a broken ststem, which I don’t know if there’s a fix too. Even now, the people just blindly follow their respective party, not actually looking and understanding the issues that leads to childish arguments with personal insults and name calling that you would expect from 5th graders
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,442
155,161
Pennsylvania
Valid points but lets be honest how many of these types of people do you encounter in your life? Does their perspetive really reach out and touch your life in any meaningful way? Yet youre the one annoyed? Have you ever wondered why that is? I think the poster you quoted was remarking that the people rallying against SJWs are often far more excoriating and representative of the mass population in their reactionary criticisms than the SJWs are in their particular brand of activism.

Take Antifa for example, who I dont agree with and who I assume would fit into your categorization. How many active members can Antifa say it has? How much power do they and their allies wield domestically? Internationally? Minimal. The idea that oppressed communities somehow have the power to pressure the status quo into changing their views on a whim is asinine. They're oppressed; they have to be in the trenches organizing, rallying, and indeed sometimes kneeling in ways often ostentatious in order to get anyone to listen to their perspective because theyre the ones on the bottom.

The opposite of that is the white supremacist. Their power domestically, internationally, is sound. Its proven. Look no further than who we have in the White House who was endorsed by the KKK. They can afford to sit back and manuever in silence because they have the high ground.

The people that say white men are evil, etc. are an innocuous threat. They have no power to make their claims a reality. The opposite has power and their views are made kinetic in the lives of oppressed people across this country every day.

Systemic racism is not some historical boogeyman that went away when MLK marched in DC. It is a continuing legacy that dominates US foreign and domestic policy, business and economics, and cultural exchanges. By ignoring this reality you activate the power of those with the high ground. Those who you claim to be against.

I think there are certain PC concepts that miss the point of the argument and distract of course but the underlying theme which is a greater emphasis on empathizing with historically oppressed communties as opposed to ignoring and dehumanizing their struggles, is completely valid and should be the goal of every self professed proud American. Of course people's egos and sense of self are often caught up in these antiquated ways of thinking and so the leap towards true empathy with their fellow americans is too large.

One more thing. Do you really believe that POC dont understand the perspective of whites better than vice versa? White supremacy is the dominant feature of historical American culture. People of color are forced to conform to a society where the basic unit of humanity is a white, heteronormative one. POC must intimately know the perspective of whites in order to have any chance to survive and prosper. Even if they play the game they still have an uphill climb.

If you need clarification on any of this I would be happy to elaborate further.

This is a massive post and I don't mean to be dismissive... but what am I supposed to take from all this? It almost seems like it's directed towards someone else... I'm confused as hell about how we got here when I was specifically talking about a vocal little group of insane people. It feels like you think we're on opposite sides of some discussion about American society when I'm not arguing for or against anything at all. I'm talking about a tiny group of loud and insane people who create pronouns and genders out of thin air and yell at you for assuming a dogs gender...

I've also said a few times now that I don't take those crazy statements seriously. I find them amusing and confusing, but any anger on my part is mock anger or sarcasm.

As for the last paragraph, no, I don't think any one race has an easier time understanding the perspective of any other race... I don't think race is the determining factor. For example, a white guy and a black guy who both grew up in the same upper-class neighborhood probably have an easier time seeing from each others point of view than that same white guy and a different white guy who grew up extremely poor in a different region of the country. An American black kid and an American white kid, who grew up in similar conditions, aren't going to have wildly different perspectives since both share the same American culture. It's not white culture, it's American culture, even if white culture is a large part of it. When the black kid is born and grows up here it's his culture too. That kid will have more in common with his white/Asian/Hispanic neighbors/classmates than he does a similarly aged kid from a random African country. The way you're talking makes it sound like a this hypothetical black kid is born with a totally different non-American culture already instilled in him that he'll need to completely change to survive.
 
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Lotusflower

Tha Snake, Tha Rat, Tha Cat, Tha Dog
Dec 23, 2013
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This is a massive post and I don't mean to be dismissive... but what am I supposed to take from all this? It almost seems like it's directed towards someone else... I'm confused as hell about how we got here when I was specifically talking about a vocal little group of insane people. It feels like you think we're on opposite sides of some discussion about American society when I'm not arguing for or against anything at all. I'm talking about a tiny group of loud and insane people who create pronouns and genders out of thin air and yell at you for assuming a dogs gender...
I respect that. Now if I may I will attempt to clarify.
You started out by saying this pertaining to SJWs:
It's a joke. These people are idiots and I really hate that it's spreading the way it is.
Then followed with this:
Well yeah, of course there's more terrible things happening, but that doesn't mean this isn't a problem. I don't give a flying **** about the Boy Scouts either, but I care about what this means in general and how this shows that the problem is continuing to grow and effect bigger things.
Also, this is the kind of **** that helped Trump get elected, and I know you hate that. I can't even tell you how many people say that one of the main reasons they voted for him was because he's "anti-SJW/anti-political correctness". This stupid stuff getting way out of control is causing other, bigger problems.
You established your belief that the various actions of SJWs and the expanding PC culture in America was beginning to bleed over into areas that effect us all. I would agree with you on this. You also established that certain extreme sections of the PC culture were idiots.
You went on the say this:
Like I said, I couldn't care less about this specific instance.
I was just talking about that general type of thinking that's all over the place these days (if it had been a move out of fear/pressure).
Indicating that you didnt really care about the Boy Scout situation specifically but the parameters of which were symptoms of a larger movement (PC culture/SJWs) of which you were worried
So, you stated your problem with SJWs was that their brand of activism would have an effect on larger issues in society. My argument was that’s the entire point in the first place and I tried to analyze what some of those larger issues might be. Racism, sexism, etc. all being interconnected and systemic as is known.
Then you went on to say this:
Well sure, but there's a whole lot of middle ground in between.
I hate the hyper-political-correctness and the SJW garbage, but saying that makes it sound as if I agree with the people who are discriminatory. In reality I didn't like either candidate because I think both are absolutely atrocious godawful people who can't be trusted for a second (on a different level than the normal untrustworthy politician). Honestly I don't even know if I'd be considered more of a liberal or conservative based on my views. Probably somewhere in the middle but it feels like I'm pretty alone there based on what I see around me.
Indicating that there’s an equivalency to both polarities. This I don’t agree with. So I explained that PC people act the way they do, ostentatious and in your face, because they don’t have power or the ability to affect change besides causing a stir in the public eye. This is a tactic to raise awareness of their particular issue and get people thinking. Which is better than the alternative because, since they don’t have power, the masses will just ignore them.
The opposing side of the spectrum, hyper conservatives and white supremacists, have power, money, and influence. They utilize them every day and indeed the nation’s history is built on these ideals. Both sides are playing with different sets of rules and resources. To think of them equivalently ignores both the context of history and the present day. Once again, Trump is an example of this in play.
My main point is that the extreme end of the SJW side is innocuous. It has no power to achieve its goals and minimal support even from the populations they advocate for. People often equate the spread of PC culture with a vice grip on free speech but its not that at all. Its a movement, at least its aim, is to introduce a greater sense of accountability across racial and class lines to our shared history as Americans. No more ignoring racism, denying sexism, and enabling homophobia. These are good things. These are movements that have been gaining steam across the world since the end of the Dark Ages. It isnt just millenial rage, though that is a funny part of it.
The extreme end of the other polarity is very much in power and it is a current and present danger to every American regardless of race, economic status, or creed. To map both perspectives as equal is willfully ignorant of both the prevalence of systemic oppression in the US and the major issues driving the PC movement in the first place (racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.).
As for the last paragraph, no, I don't think any one race has an easier time understanding the perspective of any other race... I don't think race is the determining factor. For example, a white guy and a black guy who both grew up in the same upper-class neighborhood probably have an easier time seeing from each others point of view than that same white guy and a different white guy who grew up extremely poor in a different region of the country. An American black kid and an American white kid, who grew up in similar conditions, aren't going to have wildly different perspectives since both share the same American culture. It's not white culture, it's American culture, even if white culture is a large part of it. When the black kid is born and grows up here it's his culture too. That kid will have more in common with his white/Asian/Hispanic neighbors/classmates than he does a similarly aged kid from a random African country. The way you're talking makes it sound like a this hypothetical black kid is born with a totally different non-American culture already instilled in him that he'll need
to completely change to survive.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this. Any grown adult is fully cognizant of the fact that growing up black in America is very different than growing up white which is very different from growing up Asian and in turn growing up Latin. Its not that a child is born with a different culture. Its that he/she is taught from birth by the systemic racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. ingrained in the US’ DNA that he/she is different from others. American culture in and of itself is factional and mainstream American culture is indeed white culture. A child of color, a woman, an LGBT person does not have to change completely but they do have to learn from the earliest age how to maneuver in a nation, a world, in which the basic unit of humanity is white, male, and straight. You imply that economics and geography have more to do with a particular culture than race but if that were true then why are these black athletes with million dollar contracts rocking the boat every Sunday while their owners and colleagues wring their hands? They live in the same place, make the same kind of money, are all American, have grown up in the same sports culture. They should be of one mind for the most part, right? These athletes are rich and successful. America has been good to them. Shouldnt they all just sit back in their mansions and enjoy life? Or maybe the past histories of these athletes differ greatly and just making a certain amount of money and belonging to a certain social class isn’t enough to offset the issues held therein.
And lastly by your own admission:
Honestly this conversation here is the longest I've ever thought about it at one time. I see it pop up, laugh at its absurdity, then move on and don't encounter it again for weeks. It's not like I'm sitting here reading about it and researching it. :laugh:
You can walk away. Some cant. Think of the implications of that for a second. These issues are nothing more than a distant annoyance to you and thats fine. To you, PC culture is a mild distraction with the potential to really reach out and touch you one day. To the people behind these movements they represent a defining aspect of their life and a pressing issue concerning their families and friends. There are several Americas. You live in one, the supremacists live in another, the more middle ground people live in another. The fact that you can look at a certain social or political development and then walk away from it right after while others feel the need to devote all their time to the same issue is a clear indicator that there is not one objective American culture but several. A mainstream and several undergrounds which are often antagonistic and at odds.
 
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whitstifier

Honor Black Excellence in Hockey
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@Lotusflower I think you conflate SJWs with activists and I disagree with that assessment. IIRC, SJW started as a silly joke in the tumblr community. It's a meme rather than a reality. During GamerGate, fanboys reappropriated the term to lash out at people who wanted more diversity in gaming experiences. The shift in meaning is sorta like the appropriation of Pepe by the alt-right. SJW is now a meaningless umbrella slur for anyone who demands equality in spaces not entirely accepting of minorities.

@Striiker hope the above explains my confusion. To me, SJW is usually used to put down minorities. That's why I began with a discussion on entering spaces with diversity more frequently. I thought your perspective might've been unaccepting of others.

I think the Boy Scouts development could be a good thing, though I am skeptical about the organization's commitment to improving diversity. It's a group that leans conservative and AFAIK tailors mostly to white boys. In an ideal world, there'd be an outdoorsy organization with as much support as the Boy Scouts that's accepting of anyone with interest in outdoor activities. Unfortunately that's not the case. It can be important for existing organizations with a wealth of resources to redefine their missions to support those without access to certain spaces.
 
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BernieParent

In misery of redwings of suckage for a long time
Mar 13, 2009
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Civil Conversations like these don’t exist anymore in 2017. It’s quite sad actually. I hate modern politics overall because government is political party first, needs of the people 2nd. It’s a broken ststem, which I don’t know if there’s a fix too. Even now, the people just blindly follow their respective party, not actually looking and understanding the issues that leads to childish arguments with personal insults and name calling that you would expect from 5th graders

I don't know how often I have used the term "broken system" in reference to the US political landscape in the past year, but that is the accurate diagnosis, in my humble and foreign opinion. When you come down to the two choices for President that were offered, major things went wrong in both run-ups. The Canadian system is far, far from flawless but there is something about the Prime Minister being officially recognized as first among equals, having to slog it out and answerable in the House of Commons, is a good check and balance of power.

The outgrowth of this polarization is the hyperfocus on the great rift by the media and the continued feeding of it by social media. I know there is a spectrum of opinion across the US but exposure to moderate voices that look at the whole picture are purposely excluded from the dialogues we are fed daily. Then the most extreme have venues to perpetuate their opinions to the point that there is radicalization.

Somewhere, somehow, someone has to say "Stop, this is poisonous to the whole country." I have no idea how. The peaceful protests happen and don't reach people like a good old fashioned ratings fertilizer like a riot. Is it because we have been conditioned to want simple answers?

[Gets down off soapbox]
 
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