Post-Game Talk: 3/17/18 | Sharks 5 @ Canucks 3

[Ozone]

I agree with y2k.

..if he wasn't such a cocky douch, people would respect him!

 

[mossey3535]

You guys are full of it.

Markstrom is a perfectly fine #1 goalie. This is a bottom 5 team in the NHL. It was one before he played regularly, and it is one now.

Is he elite? Is he great? Is he good? I have no idea, it's hard to tell on a team this bad.

His overall save percentage is 0.003 below the average of goalies who have started 30 games or more.
His GAA is 0.08 above the average of goalies who have started 30 games or more.
He has 0.5 less shutouts than the average of goalies who have started 30 games or more.

If his PK save percentage was bumped up to league average (it is notoriously affected by luck more than skill) he would have a save percentage around .915.

Since only 36 goalies in the whole league have started more than 30 games, and he is firmly in the middle of the pack of those goalies, he's done more than enough to prove he is a #1 goalie statistics wise.

To my eye he's done more than enough to show he's an NHL #1. Does that mean he's a good #1? Probably not, but how can you tell in the middle of this mess? The only reason we know Boeser is any good is because 30 goals is good by any standard. The difference between him and Marky is that nobody gives a shit how pretty goals look.

To me, being slightly below average statistically compared to his peers while being on a basement dweller shows he belongs at this level. Hell his overall save percentage is better than Carey Price's. No, he is not better than Carey Price.

If he was the only one giving up soft goals early, I would concede it as an issue. But Nilsson has also done so. The chances of this being a team effect (like all of their stats) is high.

 

[Ozone]

All hail Marky
When you are in net, and watch your players in front of you.... back away.

 

[mossey3535]

Markstrom deserves far less criticism than the majority of this trash roster. There are elite goaltenders performing on or below Markstrom's level in the NHL right now. He isn't even close to elite, but Vancouver fans for whatever reason are unable to see past the goalie.

How many people wanted Luongo gone after the 2nd round in 2009? What about the 2nd round in 2010? What about the 1st and 4th rounds in 2011? What about when he was "flopping too much"? Luongo still going strong while other 'superior' goalies are playing nowhere near the level he's at.

Markstrom is no Luongo but I would not dump him and force Demko in behind this lineup. Not only would I like to see Markstrom play behind a team that isn't this bad, but I'd really rather not ruin Demko. His numbers aren't out of this world amazing, they seem pretty comparable to Lack's

Like I said before, Nilsson's contained game would go really well on a playoff team.

Look at McElhinney. That guy is not good. I watched the Leafs game today and didn't think he played that well. I thought he was kind of shaky as usual. But that team is good, especially at home. So he looks good in part because of that, he's got a winning streak going.

Marky IMO this year has performed well for such a crap team. Yeah, some of the stuff he's given up hasn't looked good. But that's the nature of goaltending. Lots of time it makes you look bad. Look at Luongo, still going strong - still gave up a soft goal in today's game. But he was on a hot streak before that.

 

[mossey3535]

Like for all the Miller apologists. What a superior goalie! His soft goals sure looked a lot better! But statistically the team results were the same, and the individual results were the same.

 

[mossey3535]

All hail Marky
When you are in net, and watch your players in front of you.... back away.

Problem is they don't know when to back away LOL. Too many blocked shot attempts on easily saved shots, not enough keeping guys from cutting across the crease.

 

[Ozone]

Problem is they don't know when to back away LOL. Too many blocked shot attempts on easily saved shots, not enough keeping guys from cutting across the crease.

As a fellow goalie, couldn't agree more..

 

[Ozone]

Problem is they don't know when to back away LOL. Too many blocked shot attempts on easily saved shots, not enough keeping guys from cutting across the crease.

One last point: I hate the blocked shots and guys cutting in my crease!
Just clear it out, and let us do our jobs..

 

[Intangibos]

Well said.
The goalie reflects what is in front of him..

I was a goalie too, brother.

Some of the players on my team probably could have made this Canucks team. At least the ones who had already hit puberty, anyway.

 

[Ozone]

I was a goalie too, brother.

Us Goalies need to stick together...unless you try to put something buy on me!....lol

 

[Ozone]

Overall, I guess my point is; don't blame the goalie, and look forward to the team, and then the management....
Never start with the 'last line of defense' .....

 

[Ozone]

Last last point: I snap when the other team blows snow in my face. I snap.

I received so many penalties for my blocker being thrust in their necks after ...
Happy times!

 

[MisfortuneCookie]

Overall, I guess my point is; don't blame the goalie, and look forward to the team, and then the management....
Never start with the 'last line of defense' .....

You goalies are absolutely pathological, and goalies are always defending goalies. You're all insane. The brotherhood of mental disorders.

I have no idea what Markstrom is yet, because this team has been constructed horribly, but I won't defend him either. We must hold a record for the most first shots on goal being let in. I'm sure that has a pretty deflating effect on the team, no matter how many dazzling saves he makes while they're trying to dig themselves out of the hole.

It's not just soft goals, it's when he lets soft goals in. He looks better when he gets tons of work, which isn't a good thing in my opinion. Goalies are difficult to judge, but all we can say is that he hasn't made the saves when they matter. He's had a very bizarre year. Both of our goalies are huge, but they look so small in net. I see him squish up when I think he should be challenging, and pucks always sneaking by his waist or through his fivehole, or nasty goals leaking through the post and his pad. It seems his positioning isn't solid enough for his size and he's not conservative enough. He can't close his lanky legs fast enough to close up.

So you think he's a mid-range starter in the NHL? What do you think you could get for him in a trade? That's how I like to evaluate players. I think you might be able to get a 3rd round pick for Markstrom maximum. I don't know of many starters that I think would garner such a weak return.

 

[Ozone]

You goalies are absolutely pathological, and goalies are always defending goalies. You're all insane. The brotherhood of mental disorders.

I have no idea what Markstrom is yet, because this team has been constructed horribly, but I won't defend him either. We must hold a record for the most first shots on goal being let in. I'm sure that has a pretty deflating effect on the team, no matter how many dazzling saves he makes while they're trying to dig themselves out of the hole.

It's not just soft goals, it's when he lets soft goals in. He looks better when he gets tons of work, which isn't a good thing in my opinion. Goalies are difficult to judge, but all we can say is that he hasn't made the saves when they matter. He's had a very bizarre year. Both of our goalies are huge, but they look so small in net. I see him squish up when I think he should be challenging, and pucks always sneaking by his waist or through his fivehole, or nasty goals leaking through the post and his pad. It seems his positioning isn't solid enough for his size and he's not conservative enough. He can't close his lanky legs fast enough to close up.

So you think he's a mid-range starter in the NHL? What do you think you could get for him in a trade? That's how I like to evaluate players. I think you might be able to get a 3rd round pick for Markstrom maximum. I don't know of many starters that I think would garner such a weak return.

Well, tell us what you really feel... lol
If you played the game, you would know better..

 

[Ozone]

You goalies are absolutely pathological, and goalies are always defending goalies. You're all insane. The brotherhood of mental disorders.

I have no idea what Markstrom is yet, because this team has been constructed horribly, but I won't defend him either. We must hold a record for the most first shots on goal being let in. I'm sure that has a pretty deflating effect on the team, no matter how many dazzling saves he makes while they're trying to dig themselves out of the hole.

It's not just soft goals, it's when he lets soft goals in. He looks better when he gets tons of work, which isn't a good thing in my opinion. Goalies are difficult to judge, but all we can say is that he hasn't made the saves when they matter. He's had a very bizarre year. Both of our goalies are huge, but they look so small in net. I see him squish up when I think he should be challenging, and pucks always sneaking by his waist or through his fivehole, or nasty goals leaking through the post and his pad. It seems his positioning isn't solid enough for his size and he's not conservative enough. He can't close his lanky legs fast enough to close up.

So you think he's a mid-range starter in the NHL? What do you think you could get for him in a trade? That's how I like to evaluate players. I think you might be able to get a 3rd round pick for Markstrom maximum. I don't know of many starters that I think would garner such a weak return.

I have to admit,I feel asleep half way threw your tirade...

 

[mossey3535]

So despite all these perceived weaknesses, he is doing fine statistically!

Statistics presents us with the body of work so far. It doesn't care about the perceived "value" or "timing".

"Mrazek was 8-7-3 with a 2.89 goals-against average and a .910 save percentage this season for Detroit while playing behind Jimmy Howard." He was traded for conditional 3rd and 4th (could be 2nd/3rd).

Howard is .909 with a 2.87 GAA. When doing my search he is coincidentally the goalie ranked directly after Marky when sorted by save percentage.

So a goalie with worse stats on a slightly better team has already been traded for more than you claim Marky would get. Also, Mrazek is 26 so their ages are similar.

 

[mossey3535]

Honestly, every time I hear this "weak goal" argument it makes me think of those posters who complain about Boeser not generating enough 5v5 points.

 

[Intangibos]

You goalies are absolutely pathological, and goalies are always defending goalies. You're all insane. The brotherhood of mental disorders.

I have no idea what Markstrom is yet, because this team has been constructed horribly, but I won't defend him either. We must hold a record for the most first shots on goal being let in. I'm sure that has a pretty deflating effect on the team, no matter how many dazzling saves he makes while they're trying to dig themselves out of the hole.

It's not just soft goals, it's when he lets soft goals in. He looks better when he gets tons of work, which isn't a good thing in my opinion. Goalies are difficult to judge, but all we can say is that he hasn't made the saves when they matter. He's had a very bizarre year. Both of our goalies are huge, but they look so small in net. I see him squish up when I think he should be challenging, and pucks always sneaking by his waist or through his fivehole, or nasty goals leaking through the post and his pad. It seems his positioning isn't solid enough for his size and he's not conservative enough. He can't close his lanky legs fast enough to close up.

So you think he's a mid-range starter in the NHL? What do you think you could get for him in a trade? That's how I like to evaluate players. I think you might be able to get a 3rd round pick for Markstrom maximum. I don't know of many starters that I think would garner such a weak return.

Go browse the GDTs in 2011 and see the same complaints about soft goals in regards to Luongo. Goldfish memory in here. We heard a lot about how our D didn't trust Luongo which is why it seemed they were out of position.

As for first goals, I mean these guys are paid millions but eventually it's business as usual to them. I'm sorry but I bet you a ton of NHL players would have trouble getting up for a game on this team. Markstrom seems to get hotter as he gets into a game, and if we had a decent roster it might not be an issue.

Is Price the problem in Montreal? Posting a significantly lower save percentage than Markstrom must be extremely deflating to the team.

Evaluating players based on what they might return in a trade is dreadful. If I had to evaluate your post history based on that comment it would likely return a more accurate result. Did Eriksson and Seguin really have comparable value? Was Lucic a player who was worth a 1st rounder?

I'm not just blindly defending goalies. In the roster thread, I think, I was arguing that paying for a premium goalie in today's NHL isn't worth it. I believe good NHL goalies are a dime a dozen. However, the statistics are pretty clear. Markstrom is about average for goaltenders in the NHL behind a terrible team. Not only that but it's a terrible team with Gudbranson in the top 3 and Granlund - Gagner on your 3rd line behind the Sedins who get outscored badly at ES.

It's an absolute joke that anyone can look at this team and genuinely think goaltending is one of the primary issues. It's a question mark at worst.

 

[MadaCanuckle]

Markstrom deserves far less criticism than the majority of this trash roster. There are elite goaltenders performing on or below Markstrom's level in the NHL right now. He isn't even close to elite, but Vancouver fans for whatever reason are unable to see past the goalie.

How many people wanted Luongo gone after the 2nd round in 2009? What about the 2nd round in 2010? What about the 1st and 4th rounds in 2011? What about when he was "flopping too much"? Luongo still going strong while other 'superior' goalies are playing nowhere near the level he's at.

Markstrom is no Luongo but I would not dump him and force Demko in behind this lineup. Not only would I like to see Markstrom play behind a team that isn't this bad, but I'd really rather not ruin Demko. His numbers aren't out of this world amazing, they seem pretty comparable to Lack's

This, so much this. We have half of a decent D in the NHL and people criticize Maelstrom? How about our foundational pieces who are supposedly good defensive players and can't box out featherweight players? (Sutter, yep, it is you I am talking about).

Defence starts with forwards, not solely on goaltending . People find shitty excuses to explain how bad the Canucks are right now. There's only one reason . Stop trying to find false arguments .

 

[y2kcanucks]

Markstrom deserves far less criticism than the majority of this trash roster. There are elite goaltenders performing on or below Markstrom's level in the NHL right now. He isn't even close to elite, but Vancouver fans for whatever reason are unable to see past the goalie.

How many people wanted Luongo gone after the 2nd round in 2009? What about the 2nd round in 2010? What about the 1st and 4th rounds in 2011? What about when he was "flopping too much"? Luongo still going strong while other 'superior' goalies are playing nowhere near the level he's at.

Markstrom is no Luongo but I would not dump him and force Demko in behind this lineup. Not only would I like to see Markstrom play behind a team that isn't this bad, but I'd really rather not ruin Demko. His numbers aren't out of this world amazing, they seem pretty comparable to Lack's

Absolutely. This market likes to blame the goalie a lot. It's still apparently Luongo's fault that our offense couldn't score in 2011. Even Schneider got the "he's not a winner" from some after 2013.

Markstrom isn't an elite goalie, but he's good as a transitional goalie at least. It can get much worse. I'd take Markstrom over what Calgary has put out there for years. Also over what Winnipeg has had for years until Hellebyuck stepped up.

 

[pgj98m3]

Last last point: I snap when the other team blows snow in my face. I snap.

I received so many penalties for my blocker being thrust in their necks after ...
Happy times!

Your team-mates must have loved all the PK practice you gave them.

 

[tyhee]

...

Markstrom is no Luongo but I would not dump him and force Demko in behind this lineup. ... I'd really rather not ruin Demko. ...

This is a view I've also expressed, though now I'm not so sure because the failure of the Canucks to provide a competitive team in Utica could be harming Demko's development.

The Canucks are a terrible NHL team at present but at least the focus of management was on acquiring players to play on the NHL team. The Comets are a terrible AHL team at present and there has been very little management focus on acquiring decent players to play for them, other than Conacher's acquisitions of players from the ECHL to sign on professional tryout contracts to fill in for injuries and callups.

The Comets hung in doing well for a long while, largely because of their goaltending, but things have fallen apart on them lately and Demko's play appears to have slipped from the excellence he displayed earlier this season. They've lost 9 of their last 10, with the only win being in overtime. They've allowed 39 goals against in their last 10 games. Of the games Demko played in those 10:

Feb 21 stopped 19 of 24 shots (loss)
Feb 23 stopped 23 of 27 shots (loss)
Mar 3 stopped 27 of 30 shots (loss)
Mar 4 stopped 7 of 10 shots relieving Bachman (loss)
Mar 9 stopped 25 of 27 shots in overtime win
Mar 16 stopped 19 of 23 shots (loss)

That makes 120 saves on 141 shots, a save % of .851 in his last 6 appearances. I'm not sure how much time he spent in relief of Bachman nor how much time his net was empty (6th attacker on delayed penalty calls and late in games) but his GAA in that time will be something in excess of 3.60. These things ebb and flow and his overall season stats are still pretty good, but the trend is that his results are getting much worse than his stellar performance earlier in the season.

Is getting shelled behind a bad team at the AHL level better than getting shelled behind at bad team at the NHL level? Which team would be the better place to develop next season?

 

[pgj98m3]

This is a view I've also expressed, though now I'm not so sure because the failure of the Canucks to provide a competitive team in Utica could be harming Demko's development.

The Canucks are a terrible NHL team at present but at least the focus of management was on acquiring players to play on the NHL team. The Comets are a terrible AHL team at present and there has been very little management focus on acquiring decent players to play for them, other than Conacher's acquisitions of players from the ECHL to sign on professional tryout contracts to fill in for injuries and callups.

The Comets hung in doing well for a long while, largely because of their goaltending, but things have fallen apart on them lately and Demko's play appears to have slipped from the excellence he displayed earlier this season. They've lost 9 of their last 10, with the only win being in overtime. They've allowed 39 goals against in their last 10 games. Of the games Demko played in those 10:

Feb 21 stopped 19 of 24 shots (loss)
Feb 23 stopped 23 of 27 shots (loss)
Mar 3 stopped 27 of 30 shots (loss)
Mar 4 stopped 7 of 10 shots relieving Bachman (loss)
Mar 9 stopped 25 of 27 shots in overtime win
Mar 16 stopped 19 of 23 shots (loss)

That makes 120 saves on 141 shots, a save % of .851 in his last 6 appearances. I'm not sure how much time he spent in relief of Bachman nor how much time his net was empty (6th attacker on delayed penalty calls and late in games) but his GAA in that time will be something in excess of 3.60. These things ebb and flow and his overall season stats are still pretty good, but the trend is that his results are getting much worse than his stellar performance earlier in the season.

Is getting shelled behind a bad team at the AHL level better than getting shelled behind at bad team at the NHL level? Which team would be the better place to develop next season?

Is there anything this management can’t f*** up??

 

[PG Canuck]

Like for all the Miller apologists. What a superior goalie! His soft goals sure looked a lot better! But statistically the team results were the same, and the individual results were the same.

Never forget this exchange...

Markstrom 2017/18
.910SV%
3.26GAA
1244 Shots Against
.920 SV% ES
.824 SV% PP

Canucks are 23rd in the league with 78.6% on the PK.

Miller 2016/17
.914 SV%
2.80 GAA
1737 Shots Against
.924 SV% ES
.852 SV% PP

Canucks were 28th in the league with

This is Markstrom's first year as being the starter so in comparison, we are getting near, if not the same level of goaltending as we were with Miller last season especially when looking at ES numbers.

I would say this teams level of defense has undoubtedly been worse than last years team, with Hutton and Stecher specifically having incredibly bipolar years, along with Gudbranson/Del Zotto/Pouliot bleeding chances at ES whenever they are on the ice, yet Markstrom's ES numbers look good.

The Canucks are up 2% on the PK this year, in comparison to last year which brings them up to 23rd in the league from 28th last year. Worth noting, considering the difference in SV% PP the goalies have.

The only issue looks to be on the PK, and that can boil down to various reasons. Markstrom, systems issues, personnel, all of those things combined.

Forget the numbers. Miller was better. How many goals did Miller let in that you thought was his fault vs Markstrom and Nilsson this year? Then again, Miller is a potential HOFer.

I had high hopes for Markstrom, but I felt that both Markstrom and Nilsson didn't look composed and calm in net. Markstrom seems to have left gaping hopes moving side to side. Melanson supposedly preached more of a mechanical style that tended to work well with big goaltenders. Cloutier seems to have allowed Markstrom and Nilsson to go with their natural instinct.

I felt Markstrom has gone back to his old ways where he didn't even have success in the AHL. Is that Cloutier's fault? I still think Markstrom has the talent but I'm not sure Cloutier is the right coach for him.

I provide stats to debunk the Miller is better crap, then the first sentence in response?

FORGET THE NUMBERS.

 

[VanJack]

You guys are full of it.

Markstrom is a perfectly fine #1 goalie. This is a bottom 5 team in the NHL. It was one before he played regularly, and it is one now.

Is he elite? Is he great? Is he good? I have no idea, it's hard to tell on a team this bad.

His overall save percentage is 0.003 below the average of goalies who have started 30 games or more.
His GAA is 0.08 above the average of goalies who have started 30 games or more.
He has 0.5 less shutouts than the average of goalies who have started 30 games or more.

If his PK save percentage was bumped up to league average (it is notoriously affected by luck more than skill) he would have a save percentage around .915.

Since only 36 goalies in the whole league have started more than 30 games, and he is firmly in the middle of the pack of those goalies, he's done more than enough to prove he is a #1 goalie statistics wise.

To my eye he's done more than enough to show he's an NHL #1. Does that mean he's a good #1? Probably not, but how can you tell in the middle of this mess? The only reason we know Boeser is any good is because 30 goals is good by any standard. The difference between him and Marky is that nobody gives a **** how pretty goals look.

To me, being slightly below average statistically compared to his peers while being on a basement dweller shows he belongs at this level. Hell his overall save percentage is better than Carey Price's. No, he is not better than Carey Price.

If he was the only one giving up soft goals early, I would concede it as an issue. But Nilsson has also done so. The chances of this being a team effect (like all of their stats) is high.

If you think the Canucks should be satisfied with 'average' to slightly 'below average' goaltending, then Marky's your man.....but will safely predict that by the time this team is actually good again, both current goalies will be long gone.