21 Years Ago Today - Fight Night at the Joe

DFC

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Sep 26, 2013
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You win by suckering a guy, you don't get to put a feather in your cap.

Lemieux was a MUCH better player who when asked nodded and went. He might not have won the rematch but when he actually knew he was in a fight he more than held his own with "tough guy" McCarty.

Lemieux got back some respect by having that fight. It was a different time, when respect was indeed won/lost in that kind of way.

McCarty was a borderline tough guy, really. He was an undersized heavyweight who had more courage than brains when it came to fighting, which made him a long time favorite in Detroit.

But I think villifying McCarty for what he did to Lemieux only works if you're willing to villify Lemieux for the hit on Draper. I don't think McCarty cared a whole lot about a fair fight. He wanted to hurt Lemieux, as Lemieux had hurt Draper. Both acts were predatory, but one guy attacked a player who was also predatory, and, right or wrong, it was a consequence for a predatory action.
 
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sandysan

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Lemieux got back some respect by having that fight. It was a different time, when respect was indeed won/lost in that kind of way.

McCarty was a borderline tough guy, really. He was an undersized heavyweight who had more courage than brains when it came to fighting, which made him a long time favorite in Detroit.

But I think villifying McCarty for what he did to Lemieux only works if you're willing to villify Lemieux for the hit on Draper. I don't think McCarty cared a whole lot about a fair fight. He wanted to hurt Lemieux, as Lemieux had hurt Draper. Both acts were predatory, but one guy attacked a player who was also predatory, and, right or wrong, it was a consequence for a predatory action.

lemieux committed to hit draper who DID turn. I don't know what was in lemieux's mind but to me that could be a normal hit that went bad. This wasnt brasher mcsorely, or even Dale hunter running a guy well late. it was a hockey play, possible ill conceived or executed that led to as unfortunate outcome. That doesnt absolve lemieux but that. my friend, is fundamentally different that a guy lying in the weeds for games then decide to sucker a guy and then goes on to crow about it. To be frank this false equivalence is the type people should be ashamed at making.

and you are right, mcCarty didnt care a whoile lot about a fair fight. therein lies the rub.
 
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quoipourquoi

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Hockey law dictates that he needed to get punched. Really hard. Doesn't have to be fair, just has to be really hard. Kozlov deserved it for what he did to Foote. Lemieux deserved it for what he did to Kozlov. What I don't understand is Kris Draper having the best view of Lemieux trying to take Kozlov's head off and just gliding up to him and yapping. You're down in the series and you really want a powerplay, but a guy like that needs to be kept in check when he's giving cheapshots, otherwise he's just going to keep running around.

The whole rivalry is full of players standing up for their teammates. Lemieux had Foote's back, McCarty had Draper's back, Foote and Roy had Lemieux's back, Shanahan and Vernon had McCarty's back. Capulets and Montagues. Draper not engaging Lemieux in Game 3 would be like Romeo not engaging Tybalt after Mercutio's death; Tybalt's not going to stop until you punch him in the face. Really hard.
 

sandysan

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Hockey law dictates that he needed to get punched. Really hard. Doesn't have to be fair, just has to be really hard. Kozlov deserved it for what he did to Foote. Lemieux deserved it for what he did to Kozlov. What I don't understand is Kris Draper having the best view of Lemieux trying to take Kozlov's head off and just gliding up to him and yapping. You're down in the series and you really want a powerplay, but a guy like that needs to be kept in check when he's giving cheapshots, otherwise he's just going to keep running around.

The whole rivalry is full of players standing up for their teammates. Lemieux had Foote's back, McCarty had Draper's back, Foote and Roy had Lemieux's back, Shanahan and Vernon had McCarty's back. Capulets and Montagues. Draper not engaging Lemieux in Game 3 would be like Romeo not engaging Tybalt after Mercutio's death; Tybalt's not going to stop until you punch him in the face. Really hard.
that's not hockey law. its not even close. Hockey law says if you have a beef you settle up the first chance you get, you don't get to hold beefs and settle them at a time of your choosing. And any hockey law says that its okay to sucker a guy in a fight is a law that should be lost.

standing up for a teamamte = good. waiting around like a snake in the grass for GAMES only to sucker an unsuspecting player = gutless and reprehensible.

As to why draper didnt do anything to lemieux, well that seems to be his forte, not doing anything. because he was given the chance to settle accounts, and passed. when lemieux was aked, not only did he say yes he said it was his obligation to answer the bell. If only Draper had the same conviction.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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...waiting around like a snake in the grass for GAMES only to sucker an unsuspecting player = gutless and reprehensible.

Your absolutely correct about the waiting around & suckering part, sucker punching, hitting from behind, blindsiding all gutless, absolutely verboten & if someone does that then the Code calls for immediate, instantaneous retaliation. Few if any acts more reckless, viscous. If the victim of such an attack is unable to respond with his fists, injured as can be the case then immediately grabbed & thumped by a teammate but instead not one of his teammates takes it upon himself to administer swift justice to the perpetrator then thats a huge problem, creates a series of problems that since the institution of the Instigator Rule we've seen the results of at various times over the past couple of decades.

So... The offending player gets 5 minutes, a misconduct, possibly suspended & fined if overt, obvious & egregious, if injury involved an even heavier fine, loss of income. Such players rarely ever drop the gloves & face fights head on, suckering an act of cowardice, so maybe the next time the teams meet, maybe much later in the season or even the next season, usually the victim of the drive-by will behind the play or cleanly during play "get even".... Just ask Gordie Howe about that.... you foul anyone with a dirty hit, nasty stickwork & even in situations where "no call", you take the guys number, get back to him later. If thats "snake in the grass" so be it... Context important here. Your right, you dont respond with a likewise "sucker" on the guy later on, you rattle & ring him up, clock the idiot legally or hey, even illegally behind the play when the Refs' not lookin, however with 2 Refs out there..... qpq is also correct, your just talking at cross channels. Need context. Context everything in these situations. Talkin Mayhem specifically in this case but Retribution on a broader scale.
 
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sandysan

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Dec 7, 2011
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Your absolutely correct about the waiting around & suckering part, sucker punching, hitting from behind, blindsiding all gutless, absolutely verboten & if someone does that then the Code calls for immediate, instantaneous retaliation. Few if any acts more reckless, viscous. If the victim of such an attack is unable to respond with his fists, injured as can be the case then immediately grabbed & thumped by a teammate but instead not one of his teammates takes it upon himself to administer swift justice to the perpetrator then thats a huge problem, creates a series of problems that since the institution of the Instigator Rule we've seen the results of at various times over the past couple of decades.

So... The offending player gets 5 minutes, a misconduct, possibly suspended & fined if overt, obvious & egregious, if injury involved an even heavier fine, loss of income. Such players rarely ever drop the gloves & face fights head on, suckering an act of cowardice, so maybe the next time the teams meet, maybe much later in the season or even the next season, usually the victim of the drive-by will behind the play or cleanly during play "get even".... Just ask Gordie Howe about that.... you foul anyone with a dirty hit, nasty stickwork & even in situations where "no call", you take the guys number, get back to him later. If thats "snake in the grass" so be it... Context important here. Your right, you dont respond with a likewise "sucker" on the guy later on, you rattle & ring him up, clock the idiot legally or hey, even illegally behind the play when the Refs' not lookin, however with 2 Refs out there..... qpq is also correct, your just talking at cross channels. Need context. Context everything in these situations. Talkin Mayhem specifically in this case but Retribution on a broader scale.

the context is the following. Lemieux boarded draper and then, when they played again, he offered to settle accounts. Draper declined. His declination ENDS the beef. if he was REALLY steamed about the hit it was completely within his perogative to seeks redress. he chose not to

This isnt baseball where guys harbor beefs that last years. If you are really steamed no one will blame you if you force the issue. if you chose not to, it means that you probably were NOT really steamed and then you can't act really steamed at some later point in order to justify something you chose not to persue when you were given the chance.

The reason people self police is to END the beefs, you play loosey goosey with your stick, or you run a goalie someone is going to come calling. the idea you can reanimate a dead beef to get revenge is antithetical to the notion of self policing. whenever we see guys trying to settle accounts, its not the fifth game after the precipitating incident. FFS lemieux and McCarty didnt wait for the puck to touch the ice before going.

the rules are simple, if you think people are taking liberties you go as soon as you can so as to send the message that this type of behavior is not to be tolerated. By not doing it you are codifying that behaviour, and then if you want to unilaterally restart the beef as a cover to sucker a guy, you deserve to be called gutless.

I have no problem with guys not liking each other and having good memories of borderline hits or perceived liberties being taken. sure a guy who spears you that goes uncalled in a 1-1 game will likely get his when the time is right. Hits like the one on draper are not in the same class. these types of hits need immediate responses.
 
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a79krgm

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Love watching those old clips when the players fought from pure emotion. I attended a minor league game recently and saw two willing combatants start the game with a prolonged tussle dance while the arena dj played the theme from Rocky. It was just two guys earning their pay by entertaining a crowd of hockey illiterates.
 
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timbermen

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Loved watching the foot shorter Vernon beat the shit out of *MOD EDIT* Patrick Roy.
 
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sandysan

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Loved watching the foot shorter Vernon beat the **** out of *MOD EDIT* Patrick Roy.
so you work for the door industry, do you ?

you dont have a problem with vernon interjecting into a fight already in progress ? Quelle surprise !
 
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timbermen

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so you work for the door industry, do you ?

you dont have a problem with vernon interjecting into a fight already in progress ? Quelle surprise !
Actually it was Roy interjecting but he ran into Shanahan.Also Roy started throwing punches first,he was exposed as a lousy fighter.LOL
 

sandysan

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Actually it was Roy interjecting but he ran into Shanahan.Also Roy started throwing punches first,he was exposed as a lousy fighter.LOL
You might want to watch it again, chief. Vernon has no problem jumping in on a fight in progress which precipitated Roy coming to center ice.

But Don't worry some people actually like watching 2 on ones.
 

timbermen

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Nov 14, 2017
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I am not a violent person, but i wanted to smash Claude Lemieux's face until he cried and told me to stop, the tears of joy would overflow as i would stand over them and laugh hysterically.

Am i insane? was old time hockey awesome? Do i need pills? Or was it Claude Lemieux's fault?

Violence!
I hate Marchand just as much.
 

timbermen

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Nov 14, 2017
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You might want to watch it again, chief. Vernon has no problem jumping in on a fight in progress which precipitated Roy coming to center ice.

But Don't worry some people actually like watching 2 on ones.
Just watched it again,Roy still looked like a joke.
 

quoipourquoi

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Jan 26, 2009
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Now this was an awesome game. Today's hockey sucks :)



Haha, I don't think it's fair to compare much of anything to Game 2 of 1997. That's basically the best example of Detroit's embodiment of the blue collar identity clashing with the apex of Lemieux's and Roy's confidence - and seeing which will break first.
 

Sentinel

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Haha, I don't think it's fair to compare much of anything to Game 2 of 1997. That's basically the best example of Detroit's embodiment of the blue collar identity clashing with the apex of Lemieux's and Roy's confidence - and seeing which will break first.
Not sure what you mean by "blue collar identity." Fedorov, Yzerman, Lidstrom, and Larionov are the goddamn aristocracy of hockey.
 

Sentinel

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Aristocrats don't clear the crease like Nicklas Lidstrom did to win the game. Those are factory worker hands!
Actually, it's exactly what I would call "aristocratic" hands. Phenomenal presence of mind, calmness, and hand-eye coordination. Darren McCarty and Kris Draper were blue collar. Niklas Lidstrom and Igor Larionov were blue blood.
 
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