2023 Jim Robson Division SF: Ottawa 67s vs Chicago Shamrocks

Theokritos

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Ottawa 67s (@overpass)

Coach: Al Arbour

Luc Robitaille - Norm Ullman - Guy Lafleur
Sid Abel (C) - Evgeni Malkin - Alexander Mogilny
Marty Pavelich - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Lanny McDonald
Kevin Stevens - Ralph Backstrom - Ace Bailey

Moose Johnson - Eddie Shore
Brian Leetch (A) - Bill White
Jim Schoenfeld - Kris Letang

Glenn Hall
Curtis Joseph

Spares: Artemi Panarin, Vic Stasiuk, Brian Campbell

Power Play 1:
Robitaille
Lafleur - Shore - Malkin
Leetch

Power Play 2:
Abel
McDonald - Ullman - Mogilny
Letang

Penalty Kill 1:
Pavelich - Carbonneau
Schoenfeld - White

Penalty Kill 2:
Ullman - Bailey
Johnson - Shore

Original roster post: ATD 2023 Roster Thread

Chicago Shamrocks (@Hawkey Town 18)

Coach: Jon Cooper

Henrik Zetterberg (A) <-> Joe Malone - Andy Bathgate
Herbie Lewis - Bill Cowley - Bill Cook (C)
Bun Cook - Patrice Bergeron - Punch Broadbent
Nick Metz - Dale Hawerchuk - Mark Stone

Doug Harvey - Tom Johnson
Scott Stevens (A) - Art Ross
Roman Josi - Cy Wentworth

---- OR ----

Scott Stevens (A) - Doug Harvey
Art Ross - Tom Johnson
Roman Josi - Cy Wentworth

Vladislav Tretiak
Tiny Thompson

Spares: Patrick Sharp, Bob Bourne, Jim Neilson

Power Play 1:
Malone - Cowley - Bill Cook
Harvey - Bathgate

Power Play 2:
Lewis - Hawerchuk - Broadbent
Ross - Josi

Penalty Kill 1:
Metz - Bergeron
Harvey - Johnson

Penalty Kill 2:
Zetterberg - Bun Cook
Stevens - Wentworth

Original roster post: ATD 2023 Roster Thread
 
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overpass

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Good luck @Hawkey Town 18 ! You’ve built a very good team here.

There’s not much to choose between these two teams, but I’ll try to communicate why I like my team, and see if I can find a couple of narrow margins to make the case for Ottawa.
 

overpass

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I see the Eddie Shore - Al Arbour combo as foundational to the Ottawa 67s. The plan for the 67s is that Arbour builds and coaches a team that features Shore but doesn’t ask too much of him, just as he did in real life with Denis Potvin.

In real life, Shore had a very innovative coach in Art Ross who allowed Shore to play tons of minutes and pioneer new strategies on the ice. But in my opinion, Ross dropped the ball when it came to building a team around Shore. In Shore’s prime, Boston had poor depth on defence and slow forwards with no strong playmakers up front. As a result, they relied on Shore to do everything for the team, and this strategy was exposed in the playoffs.

Arbour built his dynasty team around a superb two-way defenceman in Denis Potvin. The Isles’ journey from a contender to a champion including building depth at forward and defence so Potvin’s role could be scaled back. He went from playing 35 minutes a game and driving the offence in the 70s to playing a more normal #1 defenceman role in the dynasty years, and excelling in that role. The goal for the 67s is that Arbour can do for Shore what he did for Potvin.
 

overpass

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Puck rushing from the defence is a strength of the 67s, as it should be with 2 of my first 3 picks spent on rushing defencemen. With Eddie Shore on the first pairing and Brian Leetch on the second pairing, Ottawa will apply constant pressure from the back end.

I think Shore and Leetch will fit well together without competing for the same opportunities on the team. Shore is a RHS RD, Leetch is a LHS LD. Shore is a power north-south rusher, Leetch an agile east-west skater (who combined very well with Mark Messier, a power north-south rusher.) While they are on separate pairings, they will play together on the first power play, when trailing late, and may get spotted together in other key offensive situations. Think Al Arbour’s use of Denis Potvin and Stefan Persson - Persson usually played with Dave Langevin but also played with Potvin on the PP and in other key spots.

If the Shamrocks have a question mark, it’s their defensive play from the centre position. Patrice Bergeron is absolutely first class in this regard, but Malone, Cowley, and Hawerchuk are not. Will Chicago be able to prevent Shore, Leetch, and Letang from rushing the puck through the middle of the ice?
 

Hawkey Town 18

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Good Luck @overpass! You've also built a very nice team (as usual), and Lafleur will always be a special player for me since he helped me finally get an ATD Championship.

It's a busy Monday morning as usual for me, so I don't have time for many comments, but one thing I did want to say was that this will be our primary blueline setup for this series:

Doug Harvey - Tom Johnson
Scott Stevens (A) - Art Ross
Roman Josi - Cy Wentworth
 
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overpass

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I have a little time today but will be quite busy later in the week so I’ll try to post now while I can.

A note about Eddie Shore’s role in the power play. He’s listed at the centre position because I think that’s the closest match for the role he actually played for Boston’s power play.

Shore was the primary playmaker on the Bruins power play attack. And one of his signature plays was shooting the puck past the defence, retrieving it off the end boards and passing it to a teammate out front. That sounds more like a centre than a point man to me.

Some important context is the point position on the power play didn’t really exist until the red line was added in 1943. Before that, the shorthanded team could ice the puck, but they couldn’t pass the puck across their own blue line. Power plays relied on “ganging” play where the team with numbers forechecked hard to win and maintain control of the puck down low, and the defending team either iced it or had to carry it across their own blue line to clear it. Shore was a pioneer as a power play playmaker in his day, but it wasn’t until after the red line was added that Max Bentley pioneered the point position.

Shore took faceoffs (or “faced” in 1930s parlance) regularly for Boston, and he’ll take the PP1 faceoffs here.
 

Hawkey Town 18

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A couple notes from my Roster post:


- On the 1st line, Zetterberg and Malone can both play C and LW, giving them the ability to switch when necessary, but the great majority of the time the line will feature Malone at C and Zetterberg at LW.

- At ES Hawerchuk will be asked to play a checking role similar to what he did in the 1987 Canada Cup, we fully expect his ES offense to decrease from this, but this should not affect his PP offense, which should be similar to how he played during his prime in the NHL where his focus was offense.
 

Hawkey Town 18

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Dealing with Guy Lafleur

Guy Lafleur is the most dangerous offensive player in the series, and a huge part of Ottawa's offense up front. They will need scoring from Lafleur in order to win games. BUT, Chicago is set up extremely well to limit Lafleur's impact:

1. Doug Harvey and Scott Stevens have been split up and are both playing LD, which is the side that Lafleur will be coming down. These are two of the very best defenseman defensively of all time, both will be playing big minutes in the playoffs, Lafleur will have to deal with one of them at all times.

2. All of Chicago's LWs are strong to very strong defensive players, who will be very useful in limiting Lafleur. A quick summary:

- Zetterberg: a modern player that I assume all are familiar with, so I won't say much here. He famously shadowed Crosby in the 2008 Cup Final en route to a Conn Smythe and Cup win.

- Herbie Lewis: a couple quotes from his bio linked here
"Herbie Lewis was born in Calgary, Alberta, and was to become known for his relentless defence and blinding speed during an eleven-year career in the NHL. He was rough for a little guy, a good defensive winger and accurate playmaker, and considered the fastest skater in the NHL in his day with his trademark short, mincing steps."

"Considered among the best thinkers of the game, Lewis was known as much for his skill without the puck as he was for his work with it. The key to Detroit's 1936 cup win was that the Lewis-Barry-Aurie line was able to control the Leafs' powerful kid line of Primeau, Conacher and Jackson, especially the work Lewis turned in controlling right winger Conacher. "Herbie did a grand job of checking Charlie," Adams told the Border Cities Star, a joy that was shared by Lewis. "What pleases me more than anything else is that we kept Jackson and Conacher, the two best players in the league, from dangerous shots," Lewis said. In 1935, he signed a new contract worth $8000 per season, making him the league's highest paid player. "

- Bun Cook: a few quotes from his bio linked here
"Bunny stands out as a great natural skater, possibly the finest there is
Defensively, though, he is a star among star forwards. In 9 seasons the writer hasn't seen him make a wrong move on defense, and during that time has saved probably 300 sure goals."

“His back checking was effective and, in general, unerring. He exhibited his customary knack of being on the spot when the visitors threatened and, as the Senators grew desperate, his accurate blade more than once saved Roach the trouble of clearing from a rally near the goal.”

"The two Cooks were too speedy for Broadbent and Siebert, both while on attack and in doubling back to smother Montreal rushes with clever back-checking."

"In addition to penetrating deeper and more threateningly into American territory than any of his mates, Bun Cook effectively plugged up defensive holes in brilliant fashion."

"Both sets of forwards did some clever back checking. Newsy Lalonde and Bunny Cook led the Sheiks in this department of the game."


- Nick Metz: some quotes from his bio linked here
Ultimate Hockey Retro Frank Selke Trophy: (1942, 1945, 1946, 1947)
Named the best defensive forward of the 1940's by Ultimate Hockey
Named the best shadow of the 1940's by Ultimate Hockey
Named the best penalty-killer of the 1940's by Ultimate Hockey
Named the most underrated player of the 1940's by Ultimate Hockey
Named the best utility player of the 1940's by Ultimate Hockey

"Modern hockey fans will name Bob Gainey or Guy Carbonneau or Jere Lehtinen as the greatest defensive forward ever to roam the NHL ice. But one player who should not be forgotten about is "the Handyman" Nick Metz.

In addition to be a superb shadow, Metz was a great utility player."



This will be a VERY difficult series for Guy Lafleur, as Chicago has outstanding options both up front and on the blueline to limit his effectiveness.
 

Hawkey Town 18

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Coaching

I am not going to try to argue that Jon Cooper is a better ATD coach than Al Arbour, but since Cooper is a modern coach who's still in the middle of his career, I would like to give a brief summary of his career thus far, as some may not have realized just how great it has been:

Currently in his 10th season as coach of Tampa Bay. Cooper has made the playoffs 9 of 10 years. In 8 playoffs (all but 2023 since that is unknown) Cooper's teams have won 2 Cups, made it to the Final 2 more times and lost, and made it to the Conf Finals 2 more times and lost in 7 games. In both of those Conf Finals Game 7 losses, they lost to the eventual Cup Champion (Pittsburgh and Washington).

So, in 6 of 9 seasons (excluding 2023 again) Cooper's teams have made it to Game 7 of the Conf Finals or further.

I read Cooper as a players' coach, his handling of the locker room/motivation of his players seem to be the things you hear people talk about the most, as opposed to more X's and O's type stuff. And for this reason I think he fits our team very well, especially in the handling of guys like Cowley and Bathgate with support from elite player leadership in Cook and Stevens.


Here is the opinion of @The Macho King (who has been following Tampa closely during Cooper's tenure), given after I drafted Cooper as coach this year:

I'm going to put on my fan hat here and give my impressions.

Cooper has done what he has done with the same core, so that puts him below a guy like Bowman who had more varied rosters, but that also isn't unique to him among ATD coaches. I think he's a player's coach with an edge (has benched Kucherov, has suspended [redacted] for breaking minor team rules.

But for all the "of course he won look at that roster", before he took over Hedman wasn't Hedman. Kucherov didn't exist (nor did others). So he did something to bring them out.

And he's shown amazing adaptability in today's game. Remember the 128 point team? High flying offense all the way. We saw how that ended. But look at Tampa since (especially in the playoffs) - they can outright suffocate teams. Florida scored 3 goals all series. 11 straight series wins.

Idk - he can be frustrating at times but other than duration he already hits all of the high points you would want in an ATD-level coach.



Coaching is an advantage for Ottawa, but it is not a large advantage.
 
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overpass

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Chicago certainly has a deep group of defensive LWs, and two very strong defensive LDs in Harvey and Stevens.

I’ll say this in Lafleur’s favour: he was by far the best offensive player on the Habs in real life, he was the obvious target for opposing checkers and top defencemen, and he was still a great playoff scorer.

Neither of his ATD linemates Robitaille and Ullman is an ATD superstar scorer like Lafleur, but both consistently drove production at a high level in real life. If Chicago is focusing on Lafleur, either one of them can capitalize. Also, keep in mind that one of Shore, Leetch, or Letang will be on the ice with Lafleur, so Chicago can’t just focus on shutting down #10.

I also have a minor question about lining Harvey up at left defence. It makes sense as a defensive move to target Lafleur, but are you going to get the full Doug Harvey experience - especially offensively, and specifically goal scoring - when he’s playing LD?

As far as I know, Harvey played primarily LD with Butch Bouchard, and then during the dynasty he played primarily RD with Dollard St Laurent. In the 5 playoffs from 1951 through 1955 - starting with Harvey’s breakout 1951 playoffs when everyone realized how good he was - Harvey had a line of 0-23-23 in 45 GP. That’s 0 goals in 45 playoff games. From 1956 through 1960 playoffs, Harvey’s line was 8-34-42 in 61 GP. So I wonder if Harvey at LD was more conservative offensively, more of an outlet passer than an all around offensive threat.
 

Hawkey Town 18

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I also have a minor question about lining Harvey up at left defence. It makes sense as a defensive move to target Lafleur, but are you going to get the full Doug Harvey experience - especially offensively, and specifically goal scoring - when he’s playing LD?

As far as I know, Harvey played primarily LD with Butch Bouchard, and then during the dynasty he played primarily RD with Dollard St Laurent. In the 5 playoffs from 1951 through 1955 - starting with Harvey’s breakout 1951 playoffs when everyone realized how good he was - Harvey had a line of 0-23-23 in 45 GP. That’s 0 goals in 45 playoff games. From 1956 through 1960 playoffs, Harvey’s line was 8-34-42 in 61 GP. So I wonder if Harvey at LD was more conservative offensively, more of an outlet passer than an all around offensive threat.

Unfortunately, I just don't have time to take an in depth look at this, but I do have some comments:

1. From 1951-55 Doug Harvey won was a first team AS on D 4 times in 5 seasons, with 51 being the only one he did not (this likely just explained by normal development patterns, i.e. it takes a few years in the league to rise to the top). His regular season goal total in those 5 years is 29, his regular season goal totals in the next 5 years (1956-60) was 30, so almost the same. Your point about playoff scoring is noted, but it should also be noted that those 5 years after is when the Canadiens are the best team of all time, winning the Cup each year so it should be expected that his numbers improved. How much of that is from Harvey switching sides and how much is from things like this:
- Jean Beliveau entering prime (first full season was 1954-55)
- Dickie Moore entering prime (first full season was 1954-55)
- Henri Richard joins the team 1956
- Bernie Geoffrion enters prime (age 24 season 1955-56)
- Jacques Plante becomes #1 goalie 1954-55

2. Harvey regularly played LD on the PK (next to Tom Johnson) even when playing primarily RD at ES.

3. Doug Harvey also regularly played LD on the PP (with Geoffrion on the right point)

4. Those of us who have been around here long enough remember frequent HOH board poster and lifelong Canadiens fan Canadiens1958. In this thread about which sides Dmen played, he said the following:
"Doug Harvey(LHS) played mainly RD after Butch Bouchard retired but he would play LD to match up against certain RW like Gordie Howe, Andy Bathgate, etc."
 

overpass

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A couple of matchup notes for Ottawa. I think Arbour’s priority would be to have the 67s playing their game rather than over-focusing on matching up with Chicago, but these are some preferred matchups for Ottawa where possible.

1. Pavelich - Carbonneau - McDonald vs Zetterberg - Malone - Bathgate. Looking for Pav and Carbs to really limit Malone and Bathgate in particular, which I think is achievable.

2. Abel - Malkin - Mogilny vs Lewis - Cowley - Cook. We’ll take our chances on outscoring Chicago’s second line, attacking their weakest defensive centre. And Sid Abel isn’t a bad option to line up across from Bill Cook.

Avoid if possible: Brian Leetch against Bill Cook. Leetch was very good defensively in his prime, and I think Bill White is a great partner for him. But a matchup against Bill Cook down low doesn’t really play to his defensive strengths (mobility and hip checks). We’ll put Leetch out against RWs Bathgate, Broadbent, and Stone when possible. LDs Moose Johnson and Jim Schoenfeld can take the Bill Cook minutes.
 
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Hawkey Town 18

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3rd Lines

In my opinion, the difference between the 3rd lines of these two teams is one of the biggest differences, and a large advantage for Chicago.

Defense
Both of these 3rd lines are very strong defensively, with an all-time elite center (Bergeron/Carbonneau). Pavelich is the next best defensively among the remaining 4, but I would also say that Lanny McDonald is the least effective defensive player on either line, although he does have a defensive and corner game, so he is not out of place. I'm guessing most are very familiar with the centers and probably mostly familiar with Pavelich. I've already provided evidence of Bun Cook's defensive game in the Lafleur post above, so here is some support for Punch Broadbent from his bio here:

"In addition to goal-scoring skills and toughness, Broadbent possessed superior backchecking. This last quality helped the Senators play smothering defensive hockey when protecting a lead."

"He was a great scorer" recalled Baz, "but he was also the best of backcheckers. He went all the way to the net. And interestingly enough, he never strayed more than a few feet off those boards, and woe to the player who tried to slip inside him. He had the greatest pair of elbows in hockey."


Overall these two 3rd lines are close to even defensively


Offense

Ottawa's 3rd line is very strong defensively, but has basically zero offensive threat with Lanny McDonald being the only player that is effective offensively at the ATD level, but he's certainly not good enough to generate offense on his own.

Starting off by looking at ES Vs.X here for the players who qualify (Bergeron, McDonald, and Carbonneau) for which the data goes back to 1960:
Patrice Bergeron has a score of 49
McDonald has a score of 48.
Carbonneau does not make the list as it only goes as low as players with a score of 41.

The calculations were only made through the 2017 season, so it's likely Bergeron's current score is slightly higher from his post 2017 seasons (apologies I just don't have time to calculate this right now).

Also, while we know Bergeron has been a top 6 player, he got a lot of defensive zone starts throughout his career more akin to a checking line center.

Looking at the players who do not qualify for ES Vs.X (Bun Cook, Broadbent, and Pavelich):

Pavelich was primarily a checker who was not expected to provide offense.

Bun Cook and Punch Broadbent were both offensive contributors on famous two-way scoring lines, with Broadbent even leading the NHL in both goals and points in 1921-22 (although this was basically a one-off season, mainly he was just a solid offensive contributor).

Bun Cook's bio linked here has some descriptions of how important he was to the offense of the Bread Line:

"Historians often tried to compare the Bread Line's intricate passing offense to that of the Soviets several decades later. And none other than Frank Selke acknowledged Bun Cook as the key their attack."

"While Bill was known as the goal scorer and Boucher the playmaker, Bun was known as a bit of both. Many claim it was Bun who innovated the drop pass in the offensive zone. Some even suggest it was Cook who invented the slap shot."


"The Cook brothers, along with centre Frank Boucher, formed the NHL’s highest scoring line for about a decade, helping the Rangers win Stanley Cups in 1928 and 1933. Bun was the defensive specialist on the line but he could also score."

"His brother Bun was the key to the attack with intricate passing and the ability to move and pass into an open space. He also was no stranger to mucking it up in the corners. Boucher was perhaps the best of the three players, orchestrating the attack with brilliant playmaking skills which often resulted in one of the Cooks pushing the puck into the open net."

Finally, using the very rough method to estimate ES Vs.X, which is to take 70% of the regular Vs,X score, Bun Cook would receive a score of 53.4 (although that's likely a slight overestimate when factoring in linemates).

Chicago's 3rd Line is a much bigger offensive threat than Ottawa's


Physicality


The only player on Ottawa's 3rd line who has a physical game is Lanny McDonald, who is generally described as a tough player who was strong in the corners, would go to dirty areas, etc.

You get similar descriptions of Bun Cook, please see point 4 at the end of @ImporterExporter's bio (linked ion this post above) which gives a nice summary of his physical game.

Punch Broadbent, however, is a legit power forward who was not only very physical, but also a more than willing fighter. Support from his bio here:

"Many considered Broadbent to be one of the first true power forwards of the game."

"one of the best fighters in his era in the NHL"

"He had the greatest pair of elbows in hockey."

"A multidimensional star, Harry "Punch" Broadbent was as talented as he was tough. He was an artist with the puck, at times scoring at will, but he also gained a notorious reputation for using his elbows to make a point."


Chicago's 3rd Line is much more physical than Ottawa's



CONCLUSION


Ottawa's 3rd line has plenty of defensive shutdown ability, but is not a threat offensively or physically. Their best offensive player is also their best corner/puck retrieval guy. Considering this, it seems to me that they will be more of a line that checks their opponents closely, but does not make them pay physically or on the score board.

In my opinion Chicago's 3rd line is much more of an overall threat to opponents. They are not only strong defensively, but each player on the line has enough of an offensive game that they can generate offense by committee after creating turnovers.

Speaking of which, they are set up perfectly for generating turnovers, with Bergeron patrolling the center of the ice and both Bun Cook and Punch Broadbent as viable forecheck/corner options.

Further, Chicago's 3rd line will take a physical toll on their opponents. This is especially important to note in this series as Ottawa expects to generate offense from their Dmen. How effective will those Dmen be after getting physically pounded in a long series (Bill Cook, Mark Stone, and to a lesser extent Henrik Zetterberg are also adding to this on other lines)?
 

overpass

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3rd Lines

In my opinion, the difference between the 3rd lines of these two teams is one of the biggest differences, and a large advantage for Chicago.

Defense
Both of these 3rd lines are very strong defensively, with an all-time elite center (Bergeron/Carbonneau). Pavelich is the next best defensively among the remaining 4, but I would also say that Lanny McDonald is the least effective defensive player on either line, although he does have a defensive and corner game, so he is not out of place. I'm guessing most are very familiar with the centers and probably mostly familiar with Pavelich. I've already provided evidence of Bun Cook's defensive game in the Lafleur post above, so here is some support for Punch Broadbent from his bio here:

"In addition to goal-scoring skills and toughness, Broadbent possessed superior backchecking. This last quality helped the Senators play smothering defensive hockey when protecting a lead."

"He was a great scorer" recalled Baz, "but he was also the best of backcheckers. He went all the way to the net. And interestingly enough, he never strayed more than a few feet off those boards, and woe to the player who tried to slip inside him. He had the greatest pair of elbows in hockey."


Overall these two 3rd lines are close to even defensively


Offense

Ottawa's 3rd line is very strong defensively, but has basically zero offensive threat with Lanny McDonald being the only player that is effective offensively at the ATD level, but he's certainly not good enough to generate offense on his own.

Starting off by looking at ES Vs.X here for the players who qualify (Bergeron, McDonald, and Carbonneau) for which the data goes back to 1960:
Patrice Bergeron has a score of 49
McDonald has a score of 48.
Carbonneau does not make the list as it only goes as low as players with a score of 41.

The calculations were only made through the 2017 season, so it's likely Bergeron's current score is slightly higher from his post 2017 seasons (apologies I just don't have time to calculate this right now).

Also, while we know Bergeron has been a top 6 player, he got a lot of defensive zone starts throughout his career more akin to a checking line center.

Looking at the players who do not qualify for ES Vs.X (Bun Cook, Broadbent, and Pavelich):

Pavelich was primarily a checker who was not expected to provide offense.

Bun Cook and Punch Broadbent were both offensive contributors on famous two-way scoring lines, with Broadbent even leading the NHL in both goals and points in 1921-22 (although this was basically a one-off season, mainly he was just a solid offensive contributor).

Bun Cook's bio linked here has some descriptions of how important he was to the offense of the Bread Line:

"Historians often tried to compare the Bread Line's intricate passing offense to that of the Soviets several decades later. And none other than Frank Selke acknowledged Bun Cook as the key their attack."

"While Bill was known as the goal scorer and Boucher the playmaker, Bun was known as a bit of both. Many claim it was Bun who innovated the drop pass in the offensive zone. Some even suggest it was Cook who invented the slap shot."


"The Cook brothers, along with centre Frank Boucher, formed the NHL’s highest scoring line for about a decade, helping the Rangers win Stanley Cups in 1928 and 1933. Bun was the defensive specialist on the line but he could also score."

"His brother Bun was the key to the attack with intricate passing and the ability to move and pass into an open space. He also was no stranger to mucking it up in the corners. Boucher was perhaps the best of the three players, orchestrating the attack with brilliant playmaking skills which often resulted in one of the Cooks pushing the puck into the open net."

Finally, using the very rough method to estimate ES Vs.X, which is to take 70% of the regular Vs,X score, Bun Cook would receive a score of 53.4 (although that's likely a slight overestimate when factoring in linemates).

Chicago's 3rd Line is a much bigger offensive threat than Ottawa's


Physicality


The only player on Ottawa's 3rd line who has a physical game is Lanny McDonald, who is generally described as a tough player who was strong in the corners, would go to dirty areas, etc.

You get similar descriptions of Bun Cook, please see point 4 at the end of @ImporterExporter's bio (linked ion this post above) which gives a nice summary of his physical game.

Punch Broadbent, however, is a legit power forward who was not only very physical, but also a more than willing fighter. Support from his bio here:

"Many considered Broadbent to be one of the first true power forwards of the game."

"one of the best fighters in his era in the NHL"

"He had the greatest pair of elbows in hockey."

"A multidimensional star, Harry "Punch" Broadbent was as talented as he was tough. He was an artist with the puck, at times scoring at will, but he also gained a notorious reputation for using his elbows to make a point."


Chicago's 3rd Line is much more physical than Ottawa's



CONCLUSION


Ottawa's 3rd line has plenty of defensive shutdown ability, but is not a threat offensively or physically. Their best offensive player is also their best corner/puck retrieval guy. Considering this, it seems to me that they will be more of a line that checks their opponents closely, but does not make them pay physically or on the score board.

In my opinion Chicago's 3rd line is much more of an overall threat to opponents. They are not only strong defensively, but each player on the line has enough of an offensive game that they can generate offense by committee after creating turnovers.

Speaking of which, they are set up perfectly for generating turnovers, with Bergeron patrolling the center of the ice and both Bun Cook and Punch Broadbent as viable forecheck/corner options.

Further, Chicago's 3rd line will take a physical toll on their opponents. This is especially important to note in this series as Ottawa expects to generate offense from their Dmen. How effective will those Dmen be after getting physically pounded in a long series (Bill Cook, Mark Stone, and to a lesser extent Henrik Zetterberg are also adding to this on other lines)?

I don’t think Chicago’s third line will bring a lot of offence. It’s three players who were secondary offensive players on scoring lines in real life. Now they’re going to bring secondary offence from a third line role? Up to a point, sure. They all bring some skill to the table. But they aren’t playing with Bill Cook, Frank Boucher, Nighbor, Marchand, or Pastrnak either, and the line will be playing a defensive role.

Guy Carbonneau was a good EV scorer for an actual third liner. While playing as a checker with Bob Gainey and Chris Nilan on his wings. Pavelich was also an actual third liner. Their offensive results should translate well because they’re playing the same role they did in real life for very good teams. Lanny McDonald will not maintain all his scoring in a third line role, but he’ll bring some jam and scoring touch.

Quick reminder that Carbonneau is a hall of famer who shut down Wayne Gretzky and Peter Forsberg in playoff series. Jack Adams called Marty Pavelich one of the four pillars of the Detroit dynasty.

Also, I will concede Bill Cook and Punch Broadbent are physical forwards who can wear down defences. I wouldn’t put Bun Cook or Patrice Bergeron in that category. And especially not Mark Stone, who has always used his size to protect the puck but not to punish opponents.
 

Hawkey Town 18

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Chicago, IL
Good Series @overpass and thanks for engaging in a cordial debate. I'm sure both of us wish we could have participated a bit more, but I'm glad we at least had some back and forth.

You built a strong team, not surprised this one went 7.
 
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overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,271
2,808
Good Series @overpass and thanks for engaging in a cordial debate. I'm sure both of us wish we could have participated a bit more, but I'm glad we at least had some back and forth.

You built a strong team, not surprised this one went 7.

Congrats on the series win! Good luck going forward, you have a strong team. Thanks for the debate.
 
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