Discussion in 'Detroit Red Wings' started by Vatican Roulette, Jun 25, 2017.
that's how they operate
Doubtful. But, 1/3 ain't bad...
Wouldn’t mind Ryan McLeod with the late 1st rounder. Feel like he’s a little undervalued and he’s a great skater.
that is awesome
Not a fan of Bouchard. In an era that is all about defenseman who can skate, Bouchard does not fit that mold. His work ethic is also very questionable, which makes me think the wings wont draft him anyway.
I want Dahlin, Boqvist, or Hughes.
Yeah, on the last episode of The Pipeline Show, Mark Edwards (hockeyprospect.com) said they don’t have him ranked higher because of his compete level.
It may be something that works itself out as he goes up a level and gets his minutes managed better. Being a late birthday I wonder if he is kind of just coasting through Juniors a bit?
Not sure what to make of it. But I’m kind of coming around to the idea of Boqvist. If he can just get to the same side as his brother, with his skill set he can become a hell of a prospect.
The "Bouchard can't skate" meme has gone a little too far. He's a 7/10 in a draft of 9/10s (and 10/10 in Hughes' case). He'll be fine. He's not a burner, but that's not his game, either.
and I don't know how work ethic could be a problem for a guy playing 30 min a night. His partner must work very hard if Bouchard does not. IMO criticisms of Bouchard are similar to early-career criticisms of Lidstrom. Bouchard is not even close to as good, but he tries to read the play like a Lidstrom. He doesn't move a ton because he thinks he's already in position. (And you don't get to move a lot when you're playing 30 min a night; you'll tire out and be useless later on.)
gooddamn i just want the draft order to be decided already
Wonder if he'd be better off as a winger or center.
Lidstrom was a very, very good skater early in his career. And he always had a good slapshot and a good pass.
A young Lidstrom would fit right in with today's modern NHL defensemen.
I'm not talking about his skating there. I'm talking about his "compete level." As I recall, Lidstrom was frozen out of Norris discussion early in his career because he didn't play the same NA style as everybody else. He was too much of a European-style finesse defenseman.
It was mostly because of the anti-Euro bias. it was the same with Konstantinov, who was the best defenseman in the game and he never won anything either.
Plus, the Norris tends to be a reputation trophy. It seems to take voters a little bit of time to catch on to the new up and comers unless they absolutely blow everyone away.
Hughes is just too good, I would love it if we drafted him anywhere outside the top two.
No offense, but Vladdy was never the best defenseman on his team, let alone the best in the league.
No offense, but you're wrong.
In 95-96 Konstantinov was the best defenseman in the NHL.
Konstantinov was the PK guy. The defensive warrior.
But he finished with 14 goals and 20 assists.
Here's Lidstrom vs Konstantinov that year, at even strength.
Konstantinov - 10-15-25
Lidstrom - 8-17-25
Chelios put up a boat load of points in Chicago. But Konstantinov was better than Chelly by this point.
Skated better. Better hands. Harder hitter.
The next year, Konstantinov was down a bit, dealing with injuries. He got second in Norris voting, as voters tried to make amends. But in 95-96, Vladdie was the best all-around defenseman in the NHL.
He was undoubtedly the leader of the Red Wings defense.
And ES numbers are PART of the equation, not the ENTIRE equation.
Total stat line:
Vladdy 14-20-34 in 81 games.
Lidstrom 17-50-67 in 81 games.
It's a crying shame, what happened to Konstantinov (and the others in the limo crash). And he was a very good defenseman, particularly that season. But sometimes his career gets romanticized a bit more in hindsight.
Nick was the leader and best player of the defensemen, before, during, and after that season. And as for the league, that's not even including Leetch, Bourque, or Coffee - all of whom put up better stats than either, Vladdy, Nick, or Chelios.
NHL.com - Stats
These are interesting stats. 6 seasons together.
Konstantinov scored 139 ES points in 446 games from 91 to 97
Lidström scored 111 ES points in 451 games from 91 to 97
Nick of, course, scored more (182 PP-points) as a better PP player on the 1st PP unit, and Vladdy got his small minutes (27 points) on the 2nd unit.
In 96 he was considered above Lidstrom
Certainly not by me. And not by the team, either, based on minutes played.
There's nothing wrong with saying he was awesome, but not the 1A. Especially since the 1A was among the top 5-10 to ever play the position in the history of the sport.
It's also entirely possible that a guy is having a phenomenal year, but still isn't the lynchpin of a group or team.
You're flat out wrong.
And Norris Trophy guys disagree with you on Coffey and Lidstrom being better than Vladdie that year.
Where's your evidence that Lidstrom played more?
I don't people remember how Lidstrom's defense was regarded early in his career.
I'm flat out wrong that 67 points is more than 34 points? Or that Leetch and Bourque were the top 2 defensemen that year in scoring? Because those are simply facts.
Yes, Konstantinov hit people. HARD. And was very sound defensively. But those handful of hits per game most definitely did not contribute more to team success than another 33 points on the score sheet. Nick wasn't just the 1A guy and PP1 QB because he could score; he could do that WHILE being arguably the most sound positional player EVER.
I'm sure Bobby Orr's defense partner sometimes had a helluva game, or even a whale of a year. But that didn't mean that anybody considered them above Bobby Orr.
Not that Norris voting is everything, but let's not leave out that Chelios had 408, Bourque had 403, and Leetch had 245. Vladdy was never really in the mix to win that one.
And unfortunately they didn't keep ATOI back then, so I can't produce exact numbers either way. But if the claim is that two defensemen were great at even strength, but on a team that set a record for regular season wins, one had more ice time due to being a monster on the PK, than the other who was a monster on the PP... That simply isn't logical.