World Cup: 2018 FIFA World Cup

jniklast

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Sep 28, 2007
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He's played Ilkay ahead of Sami when both have been fit before :dunno: Ilkay has seldom been fit, but when he has, he's almost always been first choice since Jogi first integrated him in 2012. Unlike Khedira, who Jogi has put on the bench in favor of others before.

Did he? I can't remember Gündogan playing much when the others were fit, apart from one friendly against Brazil where he for once paired Kroos and Ilkay in midfield - and that didn't go very well. So I think he'll stick to what worked before and worked in the previous friendly against Spain.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

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May 3, 2007
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If you look at Germany's last 3 friendlies vs big opponents., Löw had Khedira/Kroos as the 'Doppel-6" in two of those games, i.e. vs Spain and France. In one of those games (vs France) he played Gündogan in front of those two as a more offensive player i.e. the Ozil role. Against Brazil he played Kroos/Gundogan at the 6..and well that didn't end well.

It also bears pointing out that Guardiola had Gundogan out wide in some games recently, apparently preferring somewhat more robust players like Fernandinho and Toure in the middle. Gundogan would primarily be a passer and dynamo in midfield. The question for me is with Germany, whether that role isn't sort of in-between what Kroos and Ozil provide. If Jogi plays Kroos and Ozil - which based on experience he likely will - then Gundogan may just be the odd one out there.
 

Live in the Now

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It's pretty much a sure thing that Khedira will play. He's in pretty good form as well, and until he's benched, I'll believe it when I see it.
 

cgf

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I don’t put much stock in friendlies for the german NT, they just never end up doing anything but freaking other Germans out before a tourney :dunno:

Ilkay was a regular in qualifying for the Euros until his injury at the start of that tourney, and Jogi has given him PT during his sporadic inclusions this cycle. I won’t be shocked if Jogi does opt for Khedira, but I’m expecting to see ilkay.

Maybe it’s the optimist in me :dunno:
 

KJS14

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Jun 13, 2013
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The gap isn't as large as you think and Loftus-Cheek is most likely going to feature for England many times in the future.

The gap isn't small, and Loftus-Cheek (22) is only 4 years younger than Wilshere (26). This isn't deciding between bringing along a 32 year old veteran and a talented teenager that Southgate wants to gain experience (i.e. Sane's role for Germany previously).
 
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Duchene2MacKinnon

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Aug 8, 2006
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I would love to do a bracket predictor.

Also Wilshere being overrated as usual. England won't miss him. If Southgate really wants to play a possession game they're going to end up getting killed, but we'll see.

They won't miss him in the sense that they could play 12 players on the field and still lose early in the knock out stage.

Portugal:

Guarda-redes - Anthony Lopes (Lyon), Beto (Goztepe) e Rui Patrício (Sporting)
Defesas - Bruno Alves (Rangers), Cédric Soares (Southampton), José Fonte (Dalian Yifang), Mário Rui (Nápoles), Pepe (Besiktas), Raphael Guerreiro (Dortmund), Ricardo Pereira (FC Porto) e Rúben Dias (Benfica)
Médios - Adrien Silva (Leicester), Bruno Fernandes (Sporting), João Mário (West Ham), João Moutinho (Mónaco), Manuel Fernandes (Lokomotiv), e William Carvalho (Sporting)
Avançados - André Silva (Milan), Bernardo Silva (Manchester City), Cristiano Ronaldo (Real Madrid), Gelson Martins (Sporting), Gonçalo Guedes (Valência) e Ricardo Quaresma (Besiktas)

Can't believe Bruno Alves is still there.

Semedo not making is criminal but makes it that much easier to wish the crash out early.
 

Live in the Now

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They won't miss him in the sense that they could play 12 players on the field and still lose early in the knock out stage.

They also won't miss him because even if he was there he should only play like 50 minutes total. Dier and Henderson have proven to be better based on results. When Henderson doesn't play the CL finalists tend to look a bit lost but that's something that probably hasn't come up all season on this board.

England could make the QF though. Poland, Senegal, or Colombia as potential opponents. That's not too bad.
 
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YNWA14

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Dec 29, 2010
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Is Wilshere even better than Loftus-Cheek? RLC certainly did more for Palace than Wilshere did for Bournemouth. He's younger, and a much more imposing physical presence. As LITN said he will also fit in better tactically.

Wilshere can't even spell impact.
 

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
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Is Wilshere even better than Loftus-Cheek? RLC certainly did more for Palace than Wilshere did for Bournemouth. He's younger, and a much more imposing physical presence. As LITN said he will also fit in better tactically.

Wilshere can't even spell impact.
 

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
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Is Wilshere even better than Loftus-Cheek? RLC certainly did more for Palace than Wilshere did for Bournemouth. He's younger, and a much more imposing physical presence. As LITN said he will also fit in better tactically.

Wilshere can't even spell impact.
 

Live in the Now

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It would actually be neglectful for a counter attacking team with only one CB who can play the ball on the ground to not bring a 6'3 midfielder. Delph out for Wilshere is the change that should have been made.

They also play Fellaini and Lukaku, so size in those games is mandatory.
 

KJS14

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Bringing size over talent to a WC is great if you want to keep having disappointing results. Especially considering the little amount of talent that England's midfield has to choose from. This is some Dave Hakstol logic right here...
 

Cassano

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Aug 31, 2013
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Is Wilshere even better than Loftus-Cheek? RLC certainly did more for Palace than Wilshere did for Bournemouth. He's younger, and a much more imposing physical presence. As LITN said he will also fit in better tactically.

Wilshere can't even spell impact.
Nah, I'd rather have RLC going forward.
 

Live in the Now

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Bringing size over talent to a WC is great if you want to keep having disappointing results. Especially considering the little amount of talent that England's midfield has to choose from. This is some Dave Hakstol logic right here...

Its worked for plenty of other teams. The teams with power are usually the ones that advance. Can you name how many goals Ronaldo has scored in the knockouts? I'll spare you the trouble of looking because it's zero. Meanwhile Khedira, David Luiz, Schurrle, Hummels, Higuain, and Sokratis have scored in those games. It doesn't make any sense at all really, but these games where both teams are uber defensive are largely decided by attributes Wilshere doesn't have. He is not going to win headers from corners and it probably is exactly that simple a reason as to why he was left out. The brilliance of Spain and Pep's Barcelona was that they didn't comply to the traditional football way of getting results in tight games, but that's how teams usually win them. People always look forward to these competitions and subsequently complain about them being boring when there are very few other ways to win them.

I am honestly a little surprised that you don't see England can only win by using their best attributes, which unfortunately for them happens to be size at this tournament. Now as a counter to that, the only game they won at Euro 2016 was a game where Sturridge came off the bench and scored the winner, he was also in really good form before that tournament. Otherwise, the "England way" of simply taking the most talented players and shoving them onto the field, which is what they've done since at least 2002, doesn't work. Proven not to work.

They won't win shit here either, but taking the most talented players has proven to be a fool's gambit for England. Constructing a squad actually seems to work for other countries. Spain in particular brought every kind of player to all three of their tournament triumphs. Dani Guiza being one nobody thought should be there at all.
 

KJS14

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Its worked for plenty of other teams. The teams with power are usually the ones that advance. Can you name how many goals Ronaldo has scored in the knockouts? I'll spare you the trouble of looking because it's zero. Meanwhile Khedira, David Luiz, Schurrle, Hummels, Higuain, and Sokratis have scored in those games. It doesn't make any sense at all really, but these games where both teams are uber defensive are largely decided by attributes Wilshere doesn't have. He is not going to win headers from corners and it probably is exactly that simple a reason as to why he was left out. The brilliance of Spain and Pep's Barcelona was that they didn't comply to the traditional football way of getting results in tight games, but that's how teams usually win them. People always look forward to these competitions and subsequently complain about them being boring when there are very few other ways to win them.

I am honestly a little surprised that you don't see England can only win by using their best attributes, which unfortunately for them happens to be size at this tournament. Now as a counter to that, the only game they won at Euro 2016 was a game where Sturridge came off the bench and scored the winner, he was also in really good form before that tournament. Otherwise, the "England way" of simply taking the most talented players and shoving them onto the field, which is what they've done since at least 2002, doesn't work. Proven not to work.

They won't win **** here either, but taking the most talented players has proven to be a fool's gambit for England. Constructing a squad actually seems to work for other countries. Spain in particular brought every kind of player to all three of their tournament triumphs. Dani Guiza being one nobody thought should be there at all.

My issue is that I don't think England lacks size overall. It's not like they have a bunch of smurfs out there and they need a Fellaini. Obviously Wilshere isn't going to be favored to win a header compared to RLC, but you already have guys like Stones, Maguire, Cahill, Kane, Dier, Henderson, and Alli that are all over 6'0 tall for set pieces (unless they have Kane take the corners again lol). Wilshere is much more creative than RLC and he can pick a pass to find those guys on the counter better than most of their midfielders.

I won't lose sleep over Wilshere not making the squad, I just think it's a dumb decision and I'm rather surprised people think RLC was a better choice (edit: or rather there is a valid reason for the choice).
 
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Deficient Mode

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Mar 25, 2011
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Why do you say players with power and who can head the ball score goals in knockout games but bring up Ronaldo as a counterexample??? Few players have more power and heading ability.

Anyway, I agree that the games are often stalemates and random goals win. Takes less time to coordinate a decent defense than a good offense.
 

cgf

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Schurrle scored some scorchers & one of Sami's 2 knockout stage goals was a shot from beyond the penalty spot. Though they're tall, they didn't just use that height to head home corners, or pound in crosses inside the goalie box off...like Gotze did on his WC winner ;-)
 

Live in the Now

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I won't lose sleep over Wilshere not making the squad, I just think it's a dumb decision and I'm rather surprised people think RLC was a better choice.

They don't play the same role though. Plus looking at things in the abstract, let's look at the squad in total. I think we can all agree that Alexander-Arnold and Loftus-Cheek are going to be there in four years, barring catastrophic injury. Unless TAA wins the RWB job in training, he and RLC will play the least. Or at least, either them or Delph should play the least unless someone gets hurt.

Will Wilshere be there later? Everyone knows England won't win now, but they have a good generation coming. It might be smart to make sure some of them are experienced. Personally if it's about player quality I think there's a bigger case for Sessegnon than for RLC or Wilshere or Delph. Or for Lallana. This is also a discussion we wouldn't be having if Ox didn't get hurt.

I also think Wilshere is not as good as he used to be and for sure that would affect someone's opinion when making that choice. Like I said he'd be in my 23 unless Ox was healthy, Delph would not be.
 

Live in the Now

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Schurrle scored some scorchers & one of Sami's 2 knockout stage goals was a shot from beyond the penalty spot. Though they're tall, they didn't just use that height to head home corners, or pound in crosses inside the goalie box off...like Gotze did on his WC winner ;-)

Most of the other guys did though. I think it's totally random and there were other, way worse players over the years who scored those goals. That was what I was trying to say really.

Why do you say players with power and who can head the ball score goals in knockout games but bring up Ronaldo as a counterexample??? Few players have more power and heading ability.

He's pretty much the only aerial threat on that team though. Those other are, uh...not the first player you'd expect to score.
 

KJS14

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I don't rate RLC enough to say that he'll definitely be around in 4 years as anything other than one of the last selections (as he is this year). I don't watch him regularly, but he hasn't impressed me in my limited viewings. And as you said, England have better talent coming through soon, if they live up to it.
 

robertmac43

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Mar 31, 2015
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Bringing size over talent to a WC is great if you want to keep having disappointing results. Especially considering the little amount of talent that England's midfield has to choose from. This is some Dave Hakstol logic right here...

Agreed! Wilshere has amples of skill, I think he is worth bringing for when England is a inevitably down a goal and they need to induce some extra creativity into the team
 

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