2018 ATD Finals! Pittsburgh Bankers (1) vs New York Americans (2)

[kruezer]

I may have missed this part of the convo but I need to disagree with the notion the Americans top 6 is soft, I can see the argument for their second line but one reason I like the Mikita line so much is I believe they’d take no shit. Kariya is soft sure but Mikita and Mikhailov both would have no problem with any toughness thrown there way and still producing.

 

[kruezer]

Also i gained a newfound respect gor laperierre, especially his pk abilities, thru reading about jc tremblay. I think he's a top five all time pk d. He's climbing my all time rankings due to that.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Overall Highlights of Series

-Coaching
I think this is a slight win for the Americans with Tarasov. I'll concede that he gets that based on longevity but it's important to consider the time period he dominated (50's and 60's) was not the much tougher 70's and 80's, domestically and more importantly internationally. Gorman's regular season is very average but he made his mark in the postseason leading 2 different and very poor teams to Stanley Cups back to back in 8 years. The 1930's NHL was much superior to 50's and 60's Russia/international scene.

-Leadership/Intangibles:
I think the Bankers strongly win here. Pitt possesses 3 of the top 10-15 captains of all time in Gretzky, Clapper and Kennedy and other strong candidates for letters in Foyston, Getzlaf, Westfall, and Griffis. The Bankers ooze leadership up and down the lineup all the way back to Roy. The other major factor to consider here is the ridiculous amount of elite postseason players for Pittsburgh. Gretzky (1), Roy (2), Kennedy (9), and Foyston (40) all placed on the HoH top 40 playoff performers project last year. The Americans don't have 1 player on it. 2 year wonder Bernie Parent may be their best hope. The Bankers simply own NY in terms of clutch play and that is a big factor in a 7 game series.

-Offense:
This is an advantage for Pittsburgh. Both top lines are heavily slanted towards offense and Foyston-Gretzky-Martinec simply produces much more of it than Kariya-Mikita-Mikhailov. Plus my top line is elite in terms of clutch play. They are all great to elite playoff/international performers whereas you can only say that about Mikhailov on the other side.

The Americans have a better 2nd scoring line but not enough to completely bridge the offensive gap in the top 6. And again where is the clutch play coming from for NY? Stamkos and Gilbert have nothing to note as postseason guys. Abel won 3 Cups in Detroit but was overshadowed by many others of that generation in the playoffs. Nels Stewart was elite on the 26 Maroon Cup winning team and Broadbent was a key member of the Ottawa dynasty of the early 1920's. Each 2nd line also only possesses 1 plus defensive player.

Pittsburgh has the best overall bottom 6 player by a mile in Ted Kennedy and are simply better down the middle and overall IMO. If you want to put money on a guy in this group that will score a huge goal or win an important draw, look no further than Teeder.

Overall: Pittsburgh has the better 1st, 3rd, and 4th lines here IMO. This is a pretty decent advantage for Pitt i think.


-Defense:
Nobody is going to deny that the Americans have the better overall top pair. But just consider the Bankers already beat a top pairing consisting of Orr-Horton and Kelly-Bouchard. And Salming-Park never won a Cup so they're limited on the biggest game experience compared to Laperriere-Clapper.

It's debatable if Siebert-Goldham is even as good as Stapleton-White, but even IF they are they don't possess the real life chemistry that Stapleton-White did for years in Chicago when they were one of the better defensive pairs of their time. This goes to the Bankers IMO.

And I certainly think the Bankers are slightly ahead on the 3rd pairing as well. You're not going to convince me that Joe Hall was better than Frank Patrick. The only thing he had on Patrick was longevity. Patrick was a more dominant scorer at his peak and had plenty of playoff success. And he didn't have the problem of taking ridiculous number of PIM's that Hall did throughout his career. Patrick was the better player and wasn't a lunatic, but did beat the crap out of Hall on multiple occasions fighting. Griffis and Davydov are a wash. Splitting hairs there but remember Patrick-Griffis was the best D paring in hockey during their peak in the 1914-1917 range. More real life chemistry advantage for Pitt.

Overall: The edge here goes to Americans because of their top pairing. But the Bankers are facing far less of a gap defensively than we were against Toronto or Kenora, and we obviously won those series. And I think we edge the Americans on the 2nd and 3rd pairings as well.


Goalies:
This doesn't need to be much. Pittsburgh has a massive advantage in net with Roy vs Parent. Personally i believe this is where the series definitively shifts in my favor.


-Special Teams:
As I outlined earlier, the Bankers are superior on both the PP and PK, imo, especially when looking at the PK defensemen and PP forwards.


Pittsburgh also possesses home ice advantage in the series.

 

[rmartin65]

Looks like I shouldn't have even shown up for this one, I guess.

 

[VMBM]

Here's a great quote from VMBM on Martinec

Credit where credit is due; IIRC, that quote (paragraph with bold text) was found and translated by poster DN28, and I just commented on it below (the pondering about Martinec's possibly sometimes less-than-great conditioning).

 

[ImporterExporter]

Ranking the Impact Playoff Performers:

Elite:
1. Wayne Gretzky (Pittsburgh)
2. Patrick Roy (Pittsburgh)
3. Ted Kennedy (Pittsburgh)
4. Frank Foyston (Pittsburgh)

Great:
5. Bernie Parent (New York)
6. Boris Mikhailov (New York)/Vladimir Martinec (Pittsburgh)
7. Sid Abel (New York)
8. Anze Kopitar (New York)

Good:
Jacques Laperriere (Pittsburgh)
Stan Mikita (New York)
Dit Clapper (Pittsburgh)
Ryan Getzlaf (Pittsburgh)
Bob Bourne (Pittsburgh)
Bob Goldham (New York)
Brad Park (New York)
Ed Westfall (Pittsburgh)
Vasili Davydov (New York)
Pat Stapleton (Pittsburgh)

Average:
Steven Stamkos (New York)
Rod Gilbert (New York)
Claude Giroux (Pittsburgh)
Sid Smith (Pittsburgh)
Punch Broadbent (Pittsburgh)
Nels Stewart (Pittsburgh)
Dave Balon (New York)
Don Luce (New York)
Babe Siebert (New York)

Poor:
Paul Kariya (New York)
Borje Salming (New York)
Wilf Paiement (Pittsburgh)
Bill White (Pittsburgh)

???
Gordon Roberts
Frank Patrick
Joe Hall
Si Griffis
Blair Russel
-Feel free to chime in with these early era guys. I don't think any of them are in the great territory. Most seem like they'd be somewhere from good to poor but I admit it's tougher to place them.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Great series guys.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I wanted to point out another factor that should come into play.


Even Strength Usage:


1. Postseason ES usuage. Gretzky for example could play up to 12% more at ES than his first line counterpart, Mikita. Even Getzlaf is among the most heavily used forwards out of the current crop of players.

12. Forwards - even strength usage - top 50 playoffs

Player	GP	ES%
Wayne Gretzky	208	47.4%
Pavel Bure	64	42.5%
Joe Sakic	172	41.3%
Mario Lemieux	107	40.8%
Zach Parise	94	40.6%
Doug Gilmour	182	40.3%
Adam Oates	163	40.1%
Nicklas Backstrom	96	39.5%
Bernie Federko	91	39.1%
Bobby Hull	113	39.1%
Eric Staal	53	38.7%
Ryan Getzlaf	121	38.5%
Mark Messier	236	38.4%
Paul Stastny	55	37.9%
Kevin Stevens	103	37.9%
Gilbert Perreault	90	37.9%
Alex Ovechkin	97	37.8%
Jarome Iginla	81	37.6%
Frank Mahovlich	125	37.5%
Norm Ullman	87	37.5%
Sidney Crosby	148	37.3%
Gordie Howe	68	36.9%
Joe Thornton	160	36.8%
Cam Neely	93	36.7%
Corey Perry	114	36.3%
Peter Stastny	93	36.3%
Phil Esposito	130	36.1%
Henrik Sedin	105	35.8%
Jari Kurri	200	35.8%
Peter Forsberg	151	35.7%
Stan Mikita	155	35.6%
Keith Tkachuk	89	35.5%
Gregg Sheppard	82	35.5%
Thomas Steen	56	35.5%
Bernie Nicholls	118	35.5%
Patrick Kane	127	35.3%
Brian Bellows	143	35.3%
Tom Lysiak	76	34.9%
Daniel Sedin	102	34.9%
Henrik Zetterberg	137	34.9%
Ryan Kesler	97	34.8%
T.J. Oshie	55	34.8%
Ryan Smyth	93	34.6%
Jude Drouin	72	34.6%
Jaromir Jagr	208	34.6%
Martin St. Louis	107	34.5%
Rene Robert	50	34.4%
Craig Janney	120	34.4%
Alex Kovalev	123	34.4%
Mike Ridley	104	34.3%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Another even-strength statistic that Gretzky dominates - yawn.

Again I'm not going to post the full bottom fifty - but the ones in the bottom ten are Jim McKenzie, Craig Berube, Ken Baumgartner, Tanner Glass, Dave Brown, Craig Adams, Rob Ray, Mike Rupp, Shawn Thornton, Billy Carroll. (Rupp did well getting a Cup winning goal with so little ice time).

2. Even Strength usage across the regular season. Again, Gretzky dominates here at 47%. Mikita is used at just a 33% clip. At the end of the day Gretzky will be on the ice quite a bit more at ES and that likely means more scoring chances and possession for Pittsburgh. Gorman can double shift Gretzky in certain offensive spots, getting favorable match ups due to historically high usage and legendary work ethic.

Even Strength - Forwards - Regular Seasons

Player	GP	$ESP/82	$ESGF/82	$ESGA/82	R-ON	R-OFF	EV%
Wayne Gretzky	1487	86	104	82	1.27	1.04	47%
Mario Lemieux	915	80	98	79	1.24	0.84	46%
Eric Lindros	760	70	91	61	1.49	0.95	42%
Sidney Crosby	782	75	89	63	1.41	0.96	41%
Bobby Hull	923	70	89	65	1.38	1.18	40%
Jaromir Jagr	1711	67	86	64	1.35	0.93	40%
Pavel Bure	702	62	75	71	1.05	0.96	39%
Alex Ovechkin	921	62	79	63	1.27	1.03	39%
Ilya Kovalchuk	816	56	70	75	0.93	0.84	39%
Joe Sakic	1378	61	76	66	1.15	1.00	38%
Paul Kariya	989	54	69	62	1.12	0.91	38%
Rick Martin	685	50	72	66	1.08	1.20	38%
Adam Oates	1337	53	72	67	1.07	0.99	38%
Patrick Kane	740	61	77	64	1.21	1.16	38%
Evgeni Malkin	706	65	79	62	1.27	1.08	38%
Brett Hull	1269	55	71	64	1.10	1.12	38%
John Tavares	587	53	72	73	0.99	0.85	38%
Peter Forsberg	708	70	86	50	1.71	1.07	38%
Norm Ullman	1142	59	74	72	1.03	0.99	38%
Steven Stamkos	586	57	75	67	1.11	0.92	37%
Phil Esposito	1282	61	83	65	1.28	1.25	37%
Doug Mohns	649	38	78	88	0.89	0.86	37%
Anze Kopitar	840	48	66	58	1.14	0.93	37%
Eric Staal	1011	50	69	69	0.99	0.92	37%
Pat Lafontaine	865	52	67	63	1.07	0.95	37%
Zigmund Palffy	684	59	74	60	1.23	0.80	37%
Dany Heatley	869	52	72	63	1.13	0.90	37%
Gilbert Perreault	1191	51	67	62	1.08	1.13	36%
Martin St. Louis	1134	55	71	68	1.05	0.86	36%
Steve Yzerman	1514	56	73	62	1.18	1.09	36%
Peter Stastny	977	52	69	64	1.07	0.97	36%
Alexei Yashin	850	51	66	67	0.98	0.91	36%
Jarome Iginla	1554	51	65	60	1.08	0.91	36%
Gordie Howe	921	60	82	64	1.27	0.85	36%
Alex Delvecchio	1017	52	75	70	1.08	0.92	36%
Theoren Fleury	1084	53	71	60	1.19	1.00	36%
Mike Modano	1499	50	64	57	1.13	1.06	36%
Mike Bossy	752	64	80	44	1.80	1.17	36%
Ryan Getzlaf	861	53	70	52	1.35	0.98	36%
Keith Tkachuk	1201	51	68	61	1.11	0.87	36%
Tyler Bozak	513	39	63	73	0.86	0.92	36%
Matt Duchene	572	49	63	70	0.90	0.86	36%
Teemu Selanne	1451	53	70	57	1.23	0.87	35%
Alexander Mogilny	990	56	70	61	1.13	1.00	35%
Dennis Hextall	684	43	56	69	0.81	0.76	35%
Joe Thornton	1446	57	72	54	1.33	0.96	35%
Marcel Dionne	1348	56	69	62	1.10	0.80	35%
Frank Mahovlich	1048	59	80	57	1.42	1.18	35%
Jamie Benn	585	55	70	64	1.08	0.97	35%
Henrik Zetterberg	918	52	71	55	1.29	1.14	35%
Pavol Demitra	847	56	69	54	1.29	1.05	35%
Jordan Eberle	507	48	62	67	0.93	0.75	35%
Bobby Ryan	669	47	67	58	1.14	0.93	35%
Mark Recchi	1652	49	67	62	1.07	1.02	35%
Jason Spezza	911	54	71	62	1.14	1.01	35%
Mats Sundin	1346	56	69	62	1.11	0.96	35%
Alex Tanguay	1088	52	71	54	1.33	1.00	35%
Darryl Sittler	1096	50	66	61	1.08	1.04	35%
Andy Bathgate	686	56	73	74	1.00	0.83	35%
John Leclair	967	55	74	50	1.48	1.08	35%
Corey Perry	886	49	66	53	1.24	1.02	35%
Mike Gartner	1432	44	63	56	1.12	1.01	35%
Jonathan Toews	717	53	76	52	1.46	1.09	34%
Craig Janney	760	48	65	60	1.08	0.87	34%
Marian Gaborik	989	50	63	52	1.21	0.95	34%
Phil Kessel	832	48	63	65	0.97	0.97	34%
Ron Francis	1731	47	65	59	1.10	0.89	34%
Jean-Paul Parise	868	40	58	60	0.97	0.96	34%
Dino Ciccarelli	1232	45	63	58	1.10	0.99	34%
Dale Hawerchuk	1188	48	63	63	1.01	0.92	34%
Guy Lafleur	1126	57	79	47	1.67	1.35	34%
Paul Stastny	742	47	66	60	1.09	0.99	34%
Nicklas Backstrom	734	52	71	52	1.36	1.13	34%
Blake Wheeler	697	50	68	56	1.20	0.98	34%
Jari Kurri	1251	51	74	60	1.24	1.13	34%
Rick Nash	989	48	61	59	1.03	0.89	34%
Pavel Datsyuk	953	56	74	48	1.55	1.07	34%
Vincent Lecavalier	1212	47	61	68	0.89	0.83	34%
Kevin Stevens	874	44	65	69	0.95	1.01	34%
Doug Gilmour	1474	47	63	55	1.14	1.00	34%
Bernie Federko	1000	47	58	62	0.94	0.90	34%
Claude Giroux	656	44	62	58	1.06	1.00	34%
Jeff Carter	877	46	63	55	1.14	0.98	34%
Zach Parise	830	48	63	52	1.23	0.99	34%
Max Pacioretty	562	48	63	53	1.20	0.97	33%
Brad Richards	1126	46	61	61	0.99	0.94	33%
Glen Murray	1009	45	65	60	1.09	1.02	33%
Bernie Nicholls	1127	46	64	63	1.01	0.95	33%
Milan Hejduk	1020	47	68	53	1.27	1.02	33%
Luc Robitaille	1431	50	69	59	1.17	1.00	33%
Tyler Seguin	508	52	72	57	1.26	1.03	33%
Nathan Horton	627	47	66	56	1.19	1.03	33%
Mark Messier	1756	50	66	61	1.09	1.13	33%
Dale Mccourt	532	37	55	62	0.88	0.83	33%
Bill Goldsworthy	771	40	55	63	0.87	0.83	33%
Martin Straka	954	47	65	57	1.15	0.96	33%
Bryan Trottier	1279	51	69	46	1.49	1.17	33%
Cam Neely	726	47	66	54	1.23	0.93	33%
Jacques Lemaire	852	54	78	47	1.68	1.52	33%
Rod Brind'Amour	1484	43	59	61	0.98	1.06	33%
Jason Allison	552	46	61	55	1.11	0.89	33%
Marc Savard	807	47	59	60	0.97	0.89	33%
Henri Richard	998	61	77	54	1.41	1.28	33%
Kyle Okposo	594	42	58	66	0.88	0.85	33%
Peter Bondra	1081	47	61	56	1.08	0.98	33%
Tom Lysiak	919	43	59	58	1.02	1.04	33%
Rod Gilbert	1065	53	68	61	1.11	0.99	33%
Patrick Marleau	1493	42	58	55	1.04	1.12	33%
Pierre Turgeon	1294	53	66	53	1.24	1.04	33%
Stan Mikita	1393	59	72	49	1.48	1.12	33%
Daniel Alfredsson	1246	52	66	54	1.23	1.04	33%
Ivan Boldirev	1052	39	53	62	0.85	0.90	33%
Mike Ridley	866	43	60	57	1.07	1.02	33%
Dennis Maruk	888	45	57	60	0.95	0.85	33%
Pierre Larouche	812	48	62	60	1.03	1.06	33%
John Ogrodnick	928	40	58	58	0.99	0.83	33%
Alexei Kovalev	1316	44	60	59	1.02	0.93	32%
Rick Tocchet	1144	46	63	55	1.15	1.04	32%
Eric Daze	601	44	61	56	1.08	0.99	32%
Michel Goulet	1089	47	61	52	1.18	0.92	32%
Wendel Clark	793	39	56	65	0.87	0.86	32%
Wilf Paiement	946	41	55	65	0.84	0.81	32%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

3. Pretty big even strength usage advantage for Pittsburgh among defensemen. The Bankers own 3 of the top 6 defensemen of all time from 1960 onward in terms of even strength usage during the regular season. All 3 show great returns offensively when on the ice and all 3 are very good (especially Laperriere and White) at preventing scoring at even strength. I think this is yet another factor that plays in the favor of Pittsburgh.

Even Strength - Defencemen regular season

Player	GP	$ESP/82	$ESGF/82	$ESGA/82	R-ON	R-OFF	EV%
Bobby Orr	657	64	130	66	1.99	1.03	49%
Pat Stapleton	635	31	104	87	1.18	1.14	49%
Bill White	604	24	93	75	1.24	1.06	49%
Pierre Pilote	660	36	108	81	1.34	1.11	49%
Tim Horton	1010	24	97	83	1.16	1.17	48%
Jacques Laperriere	691	21	104	77	1.35	1.29	47%
Marcel Pronovost	636	21	93	91	1.02	0.98	46%
Gilles Marotte	808	23	85	99	0.86	0.87	46%
Leo Boivin	728	23	87	115	0.76	0.73	46%
Erik Karlsson	556	44	85	84	1.01	0.95	46%
Harry Howell	932	21	88	101	0.87	0.77	46%
Ian Turnbull	628	33	86	82	1.05	1.02	45%
J.C. Tremblay	796	25	101	78	1.30	1.30	45%
Moose Vasko	600	19	89	83	1.07	1.09	45%
Brian Leetch	1205	33	84	80	1.06	0.97	45%
Barry Gibbs	792	19	74	85	0.87	0.95	45%
Gary Bergman	838	26	86	88	0.97	0.90	44%
Bob Baun	826	19	88	77	1.15	1.16	44%
Carl Brewer	533	27	100	70	1.42	1.07	44%
Allan Stanley	627	26	92	79	1.17	1.21	44%
Ted Harris	788	19	84	71	1.18	1.17	43%
Dale Rolfe	509	19	83	79	1.06	1.02	43%
Jim Schoenfeld	719	20	88	68	1.29	1.19	43%
Paul Coffey	1409	41	95	77	1.23	1.20	43%
Jim Neilson	1024	22	81	86	0.94	1.00	43%
Dallas Smith	889	24	96	76	1.27	1.34	43%
Borje Salming	1148	28	86	75	1.14	0.82	43%
Larry Robinson	1384	32	97	61	1.60	1.34	43%
Reed Larson	904	29	73	81	0.90	0.82	43%
Denis Potvin	1060	36	87	58	1.49	1.23	43%
Duncan Keith	913	33	88	73	1.20	1.08	43%
Serge Savard	1040	23	94	65	1.44	1.52	43%
Terry Harper	1066	17	85	68	1.24	1.04	43%
Ted Green	620	26	89	100	0.89	1.07	42%
Ron Stackhouse	889	25	82	79	1.05	0.82	42%
Dave Burrows	724	14	76	85	0.89	0.99	42%
Carol Vadnais	1087	24	78	82	0.96	1.00	42%
Phil Russell	1016	22	75	73	1.04	0.96	42%
P.K. Subban	500	31	77	69	1.11	0.99	42%
Drew Doughty	688	25	72	63	1.15	1.02	42%
Scott Stevens	1635	28	83	63	1.31	1.19	42%
Guy Lapointe	884	28	91	64	1.41	1.66	42%
Bob Stewart	575	14	62	95	0.65	0.75	42%
Dustin Byfuglien	521	35	79	78	1.02	0.92	42%
Brad Park	1115	33	89	64	1.40	1.20	42%
Alex Pietrangelo	539	33	77	68	1.13	1.14	42%
Ray Bourque	1612	35	86	63	1.37	0.95	42%
Victor Hedman	549	35	81	74	1.08	0.99	42%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

5. Defensemen - even strength usage - top 50 playoffs

Player	GP	ES%
Pat Stapleton	65	56.8%
Bobby Orr	74	54.1%
Bill White	91	52.6%
Brian Leetch	95	52.5%
Brad Park	161	52.1%
Dallas Smith	86	50.1%
Ian Turnbull	55	49.9%
Barry Beck	51	49.2%
Tim Horton	106	49.0%
Roman Josi	52	48.7%
Pierre Pilote	80	47.6%
J.C. Tremblay	108	46.4%
Scott Stevens	233	45.7%
Borje Salming	81	45.2%
Marcel Pronovost	63	44.9%
Dale Rolfe	71	44.8%
Serge Savard	130	44.7%
Jim Schoenfeld	75	44.2%
Allan Stanley	73	43.7%
Ray Bourque	214	43.6%
Mattias Ohlund	70	42.8%
Larry Murphy	215	42.7%
Larry Robinson	227	42.6%
Ted Harris	100	42.1%
Denis Potvin	185	42.1%
Duncan Keith	126	42.0%
Chris Pronger	173	41.9%
Bert Marshall	72	41.6%
Francois Beauchemin	97	41.6%
Drew Doughty	81	41.6%
Zdeno Chara	147	41.6%
Moose Vasko	72	41.6%
Sandis Ozolinsh	137	41.5%
Nicklas Lidstrom	263	41.3%
Don Awrey	71	41.2%
Scott Niedermayer	202	41.1%
Mike O'Connell	82	41.1%
Dennis Wideman	55	41.0%
Phil Russell	73	40.8%
Paul Reinhart	83	40.7%
Jacques Laperriere	88	40.6%
Victor Hedman	65	40.6%
Adam Foote	170	40.4%
Alex Pietrangelo	57	40.1%
Dan Girardi	122	39.8%
Randy Carlyle	69	39.6%
Gerry Hart	78	39.4%
Bryan McCabe	56	39.3%
Kevin Hatcher	118	39.3%
Dave Babych	114	39.1%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I'm not going to post the list of the defensemen with the lowest ES usage as I don't think it's particularly interesting. (The bottom ten consists of Grant Jennings, Don Jackson, Jim Wiemer, Sean Hill, Pierre Bouchard, Ken Klee, Gary Doak, Reg Fleming, Allen Pedersen and Adam McQuaid).

 

[ImporterExporter]

Also i gained a newfound respect gor laperierre, especially his pk abilities, thru reading about jc tremblay. I think he's a top five all time pk d. He's climbing my all time rankings due to that.

I really think he's been underrated for some time.

Consider he was defensively slanted (not quite as much as a Rod Langway or Jack Stewart) and his overall postseason accolades are pretty damn impressive.

Norris record:
1, 2, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, 9

AS record:
1, 1, 2, 2, 3 (1973)


As you can see in the graphs, he was an amazing special teamer, especially on the kill. But he also, a bit surprisingly played 50% of his teams PP time and produced well above the league average doing it. He was basically as productive on the PP as Larry Robinson.

Power Play - Defencemen regular season

Player	GP	$PPP/82	$PP%	$TmPP+
Bobby Orr	657	43	98%	1.46
Ray Bourque	1612	33	88%	1.11
Brian Leetch	1205	33	87%	1.11
Denis Potvin	1060	31	87%	1.19
Al Macinnis	1416	35	87%	1.18
Jeff Brown	747	29	84%	0.99
Phil Housley	1495	28	84%	1.01
Brad Park	1115	26	81%	1.15
Gary Suter	1145	28	80%	1.13
Paul Coffey	1409	31	78%	1.13
Risto Siltanen	562	25	77%	1.02
Erik Karlsson	556	32	77%	0.96
Paul Reinhart	648	28	77%	1.03
Stefan Persson	622	24	76%	1.30
Doug Wilson	1024	24	75%	1.01
P.K. Subban	500	29	75%	0.91
Sergei Gonchar	1301	27	73%	1.07
Nicklas Lidstrom	1564	30	73%	1.23
Kimmo Timonen	1108	25	73%	1.01
Pierre Pilote	660	24	70%	0.99
Dan Boyle	1093	23	70%	1.06
Andrei Markov	990	25	69%	1.04
Sandis Ozolinsh	875	25	69%	1.04
Dion Phaneuf	902	22	69%	0.94
Tomas Kaberle	984	23	69%	0.98
Mathieu Schneider	1289	23	69%	1.02
Chris Pronger	1167	26	68%	1.12
Craig Hartsburg	570	25	68%	1.03
Brian Rafalski	833	22	67%	1.11
Dustin Byfuglien	521	23	67%	0.89
Shea Weber	841	23	66%	1.01
Rob Blake	1270	23	66%	1.04
Reed Larson	904	21	66%	0.89
Tom Kurvers	659	21	66%	1.03
Bryan Berard	619	22	65%	0.91
Mark Streit	784	24	65%	1.13
Kris Letang	603	25	65%	1.05
Larry Murphy	1615	22	65%	1.05
Drew Doughty	688	23	65%	1.04
Keith Yandle	743	24	64%	0.92
Guy Lapointe	884	23	64%	1.29
Norm Maciver	500	18	64%	0.91
Mike Green	721	24	64%	1.13
Dick Redmond	771	20	64%	1.04
Scott Niedermayer	1263	20	64%	1.05
Lubomir Visnovsky	883	22	63%	1.04
Dave Babych	1195	20	63%	0.94
Tomas Jonsson	552	18	63%	1.14
Borje Salming	1148	19	62%	0.98
Joni Pitkanen	535	18	62%	0.95
Steve Duchesne	1113	20	62%	0.99
Fredrik Olausson	1022	21	62%	1.06
Ian Turnbull	628	17	60%	1.06
Ryan Suter	913	18	60%	0.99
Robert Svehla	655	19	59%	0.86
Dennis Wideman	815	20	59%	0.90
Zarley Zalapski	637	18	59%	0.96
Jason Woolley	718	19	59%	0.89
Mark Howe	929	17	59%	0.99
Vladimir Malakhov	712	18	58%	1.02
Brad Maxwell	612	19	58%	0.94
John Van Boxmeer	588	18	58%	1.01
Brian Benning	568	15	58%	0.97
Doug Bodger	1071	18	58%	0.99
Rob Ramage	1044	17	58%	0.91
Red Kelly	520	19	57%	1.00
Dennis Kearns	677	18	57%	0.94
Mark Giordano	673	19	57%	0.97
Tobias Enstrom	676	18	57%	0.90
Jean Potvin	613	18	56%	0.98
Bruce Driver	918	16	56%	0.98
Jocelyn Guevremont	571	17	56%	1.05
John-Michael Liles	836	18	56%	0.96
Steve Chiasson	751	16	56%	0.97
Bryan Mccabe	1135	18	55%	0.95
Alexander Edler	688	19	55%	1.03
Carol Vadnais	1087	17	54%	1.04
Kevin Hatcher	1157	18	54%	0.98
Dale Tallon	542	15	54%	0.92
Oleg Tverdovsky	713	17	54%	0.90
Christian Ehrhoff	789	17	53%	1.05
Dave Ellett	1129	16	53%	1.02
Rick Lanz	569	16	53%	0.91
Randy Carlyle	1055	18	53%	0.98
Jeff Norton	799	14	53%	0.95
Igor Kravchuk	699	15	53%	0.93
Pat Stapleton	635	13	53%	1.02
Dmitri Mironov	556	16	53%	1.03
Bob Dailey	561	15	52%	1.05
Roman Hamrlik	1395	17	52%	0.92
Bob Murray	1008	14	52%	1.00
Chris Chelios	1651	17	52%	1.01
Eric Desjardins	1143	15	52%	1.04
Patrice Brisebois	1009	15	52%	1.03
Doug Crossman	914	14	51%	1.04
Kenny Jonsson	686	14	51%	0.93
Filip Kuba	836	14	51%	0.89
Brent Burns	813	20	51%	1.06
Joe Corvo	708	17	51%	0.94
Randy Manery	582	14	51%	0.93
Barry Beck	615	15	51%	1.00
Willie Huber	655	11	51%	0.82
Mike O'Connell	860	13	50%	1.02
Brian Campbell	1082	16	50%	0.94
Alex Goligoski	644	16	50%	0.89
Jim Mckenny	558	16	50%	0.94
Janne Niinimaa	741	17	50%	0.99
Mike Mcewen	716	17	50%	1.00
Jacques Laperriere	691	14	50%	1.09
Wade Redden	1023	16	50%	1.05
Larry Robinson	1384	15	49%	1.14

[TBODY]

[/TBODY]

-This to me is the most outrageous stat that Laperriere possesses. From 1960 to present he's the all time leader in usage on the PK. Nobody is within 10% of him. That's nearing Gretzky like absurdity. 76% of Montreal's kill had Laperriere on the ice and they obviously did a pretty damn good job in preventing goals.

Penalty Kill - Defencemen regular season

Player	GP	SH%	TmSH+	$SHP/82
Jacques Laperriere	691	76%	0.90	2
J.C. Tremblay	796	66%	0.94	1
Marcel Pronovost	636	66%	0.96	1
Bill White	604	65%	0.88	1
Bobby Orr	657	62%	0.78	6
Francois Beauchemin	836	60%	1.08	1
Jay Bouwmeester	1071	59%	0.95	1
Serge Savard	1040	58%	0.82	2
Ray Bourque	1612	58%	0.88	2
Bill Hajt	854	57%	0.77	1
Chris Chelios	1651	57%	0.85	2
Barry Beck	615	57%	1.01	1
Tim Horton	1010	57%	0.92	2
Jim Schoenfeld	719	56%	0.77	1
Scott Stevens	1635	56%	0.88	1
Zdeno Chara	1350	56%	0.90	2
Willie Mitchell	907	56%	0.90	1
Derian Hatcher	1045	56%	0.89	1
Alex Pietrangelo	539	55%	0.84	1
Borje Salming	1148	55%	1.09	1
Rob Scuderi	783	55%	0.91	1
Chris Pronger	1167	55%	0.91	1
Bob Stewart	575	54%	1.19	1
Bob Plager	644	54%	1.00	1
Denis Potvin	1060	53%	0.82	2
Harry Howell	932	53%	1.05	1
Rod Langway	994	53%	0.83	1
Adam Foote	1154	53%	0.99	1
Dave Burrows	724	53%	1.05	1
Dan Hamhuis	951	53%	0.93	1
Carol Vadnais	1087	53%	0.98	1
Moose Vasko	600	53%	1.00	1
Niklas Hjalmarsson	623	53%	0.97	2
Guy Lapointe	884	53%	0.76	1
Tom Laidlaw	705	52%	0.98	1
Duncan Keith	913	52%	0.95	2
Richard Matvichuk	796	52%	0.86	1
Dan Girardi	788	52%	0.84	2
Nicklas Lidstrom	1564	52%	0.81	2
Bert Marshall	868	51%	0.97	1
Craig Ludwig	1256	51%	0.93	0
Karlis Skrastins	832	51%	1.00	1
Barry Gibbs	792	51%	1.10	1
Marc-Edouard Vlasic	812	51%	0.95	1
Kevin Hatcher	1157	51%	0.92	1
Barclay Plager	614	51%	1.03	2
Gilles Marotte	808	51%	1.01	1
Tracy Pratt	580	51%	1.07	0
John Carlson	526	51%	1.01	1
Jamie Macoun	1128	50%	0.96	1
Hal Gill	1108	50%	0.97	1
Tom Reid	701	50%	1.21	1
Robyn Regehr	1086	50%	1.03	1
Rick Green	845	50%	1.04	1
Rob Blake	1270	50%	0.99	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

-It's pretty safe to assume Laperriere was logging some serious minutes during his career. Considering he played nearly 50% of his teams ES minutes, half of the PP, and 3/4's of the PK, you really have to start considering he's been underrated this entire time. Not only was he extremely productive in all 3 phases of the game, his usage is off the charts, and his postseason accolades are mighty impressive for a guy who never really put up gaudy offensive numbers.

Even Strength - Defencemen regular season

Player	GP	$ESP/82	$ESGF/82	$ESGA/82	R-ON	R-OFF	EV%
Bobby Orr	657	64	130	66	1.99	1.03	49%
Pat Stapleton	635	31	104	87	1.18	1.14	49%
Bill White	604	24	93	75	1.24	1.06	49%
Pierre Pilote	660	36	108	81	1.34	1.11	49%
Tim Horton	1010	24	97	83	1.16	1.17	48%
Jacques Laperriere	691	21	104	77	1.35	1.29	47%
Marcel Pronovost	636	21	93	91	1.02	0.98	46%
Gilles Marotte	808	23	85	99	0.86	0.87	46%
Leo Boivin	728	23	87	115	0.76	0.73	46%
Erik Karlsson	556	44	85	84	1.01	0.95	46%
Harry Howell	932	21	88	101	0.87	0.77	46%
Ian Turnbull	628	33	86	82	1.05	1.02	45%
J.C. Tremblay	796	25	101	78	1.30	1.30	45%
Moose Vasko	600	19	89	83	1.07	1.09	45%
Brian Leetch	1205	33	84	80	1.06	0.97	45%
Barry Gibbs	792	19	74	85	0.87	0.95	45%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[ImporterExporter]

Pittsburgh's Versatility Advantage:

I was browsing the series again today and noticed I hadn't really touched on how much positional flexibility Pittsburgh possess.

Frank Foyston
-Capable of playing anywhere on the F line, especially good at an ATD level at LW and C. Gives top line 2 legitimate face off players.

Claude Giroux
-Capable of playing C or LW. Obviously just completed his most dominant offensive season of his career at LW over 82 games. Great in the dot so he gives the 2nd line the ability to mix and match. If one C gets kicked out, another can replace him.

Nels Stewart
-My research showed he played well over a years worth of his games in Montreal on the LW and he did very well there from a goal scoring standpoint (nearly as good at potting goals on the LW as he was at C).

Bob Bourne
-Legitimate utility man. Can play him anywhere on a F line, mainly at LW/C.

Dit Clapper
-2 time postseason AS at RW and then was the best defensemen in the NHL for the better part of 6 years in the back 3rd of his career.


Outside of Sid Abel for NY and to a lesser degree Babe Siebert, I'm not seeing a lot of versatility there. Just food for thought.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

BTW, other ATD members (much longer standing ones than me) think Gorman was a top 10 coach all time. I've found these so far after a quick search.

Tony D:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/84710541/

TDMM: (quoted Tony and didn't have a problem with Gorman at 8)
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/84712039/

TDMM, on the other hand, has at least something of a problem with Gorman coaching a team built around Gretzky and Stewart.

Which you should know, because I said it just last series.

 

[ImporterExporter]

TDMM, on the other hand, has at least something of a problem with Gorman coaching a team built around Gretzky and Stewart.

I know.

Thats why I'm glad hockey isn't an individual sport and they each have great wingers who are capable of doing what Gorman wants. The vast majority of the Bankers fit what Gorman would want to do initially.

But if your problem is big enough, then vote against my team even though I believe I've presented more than enough to show why my team is superior to NY. Either way, I've enjoyed the ride and hope we have a great voter turnout, win or lose.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

TDMM, on the other hand, has at least something of a problem with Gorman coaching a team built around Gretzky and Stewart. Which you should know, because I said it just last series.

You referred to yourself in the third person.

 

[tony d]

Just voted, good luck to both GMs.

 

[Dreakmur]

I know.

Thats why I'm glad hockey isn't an individual sport and they each have great wingers who are capable of doing what Gorman wants. The vast majority of the Bankers fit what Gorman would want to do initially.

But if your problem is big enough, then vote against my team even though I believe I've presented more than enough to show why my team is superior to NY. Either way, I've enjoyed the ride and hope we have a great voter turnout, win or lose.

If you're idea of great forecheckers are Claude Giroux, Vladimir Martinec, and Frank Foyston, then I don't know what to say.

 

[ImporterExporter]

If you're idea of great forecheckers are Claude Giroux, Vladimir Martinec, and Frank Foyston, then I don't know what to say.

I find it hilarious that a few posters have this rigid mindset that every single line and pairing needs to be filled with perfectly molded players that fit a coaching style. It's not based in reality, at all. The Pens just won 9 consecutive playoff series (2 cups) with the likes of Phil Kessel, Conor Sheary in their top 6. Neither of them forecheck. At all. And Mike Sullivan has preached and implemented an aggressive fore checking system. Shocking I know!

So please don't make suggestive posts that make it out like I've ever said Giroux or Martinec are great fore checkers. They aren't. I readily admit that. But IMHO Frank Foyston and Punch Broadbent are both superb in that area and are more than capable of being the glue guys on their respective lines.

Claude Giroux for the past 10 years has been one of the toughest players, pound for pound in the league. He plays an aggressive style and has routinely checked in Philly. Both ways. I've watched many Flyers games over the years, given I live 1.5 hours away. Is he great? No. Good? Probably not, on an ATD level, but he's certainly serviceable in the offensive zone going into the corners and winning battles.

Vlad Martinec while not a forechecker had zero issue playing a physical game, which was rare for Euro's in his time.

My bottom 6 is littered with great, physical checking players.

As I said, most of my roster fits quite well if you want to lock them into having to play a single style of hockey.

 

[jarek]

Where do you get this idea that Martinec had zero issues playing a physical game? I wouldn't call him soft but I've never seen, heard or read anything about him every playing physically. Is he tough? Certainly.. he had to be. However, he won't be pushing anyone around.

My main issue with Gorman is that your best and most important player doesn't jive with his style.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Where do you get this idea that Martinec had zero issues playing a physical game? I wouldn't call him soft but I've never seen, heard or read anything about him every playing physically. Is he tough? Certainly.. he had to be. However, he won't be pushing anyone around.

My main issue with Gorman is that your best and most important player doesn't jive with his style.

Wayne Gretzky is the greatest hockey player in the history of the league, which spans more than a century. We're not talking about a 10th round draft pick. Tommy Gorman or any coach from that era, all the way up through the 06 years NEVER saw anyone with the offensive mind or skills that 99 brought. Tommy Gorman shunning Wayne Gretzky is absurd. Any coach, from any era would have given up a limb to have that kind of talent on their roster. As I've said Gorman coached that way precisely because he never had anyone remotely close to the type of player 99 is. As a visonary I have no doubt in my mind that he'd give Gretzky creative freedom to do exactly what he does best. Dominate offensively, especially in the biggest moments. We're not talking about some insane taskmaster like Hap Day or Punch Imlach who had the my way or highway mindset. He was an all time great players coach.

As for Martinec:

Originally Posted by Greatest Hockey Legends

Vladimir Martinec was one of the smartest and most technically skilled European player ever. It is doubtful if there has ever been any player in Europe as eager to improvise as Martinec. He was extremely creative with the puck and drove his opponents crazy.

Few players were treated more brutally than Martinec. This small (5'9" and 178 Ibs) right wing somehow always seemed to bounce back totally undisturbed and more often than not with a smile on his face. His constant smile was a sort of a trademark and frustrated his opponents even more. A lot of reporters used to ask him why he always was smiling, even after a vicious crosscheck in the back. He said that he did it because he enjoyed the game so much and always had fun.

It was evident that he loved the game as he always did something extra with the puck that left the fans absolutely stunned. Martinec was known as "The Fox" for his cleverness around the net as he simply outsmarted his opponents. He was extremely popular among his teammates who knew him as "Marcello".

Again, I clearly pointed out that Martinec won't forecheck but the bold pretty much sums up his ability to play through brutal conditions and produce regardless. Some of the greatest Russians ever didn't handle the rough stuff well. Martinec did though. Which is why I correctly said he would have zero issue being involved in physical play.

 

[jarek]

Wayne Gretzky is the greatest hockey player in the history of the league, which spans more than a century. We're not talking about a 10th round draft pick. Tommy Gorman or any coach from that era, all the way up through the 06 years NEVER saw anyone with the offensive mind or skills that 99 brought. Tommy Gorman shunning Wayne Gretzky is absurd. Any coach, from any era would have given up a limb to have that kind of talent on their roster. As I've said Gorman coached that way precisely because he never had anyone remotely close to the type of player 99 is. As a visonary I have no doubt in my mind that he'd give Gretzky creative freedom to do exactly what he does best. Dominate offensively, especially in the biggest moments. We're not talking about some insane taskmaster like Hap Day or Punch Imlach who had the my way or highway mindset. He was an all time great players coach.

The problem is you can't prove any of that.

You're also absolutely crazy if you think Gorman coached a bunch of nobodies to the cup. Prime Gottselig, Thompson, Coulter and Conacher in 34. Along with Charlie Gardiner. I'll give you 35 but I can't believe nobody (myself included) challenged you about 34.

As for Martinec:

Originally Posted by Greatest Hockey Legends


Again, I clearly pointed out that Martinec won't forecheck but the bold pretty much sums up his ability to play through brutal conditions and produce regardless. Some of the greatest Russians ever didn't handle the rough stuff well. Martinec did though. Which is why I correctly said he would have zero issue being involved in physical play.

Your words the first time were that he would have no issue playing a physical game. I counter by saying he won't play a physical game.. period. He's tough and he can take abuse, but he won't hit people. Maybe I'm taking your words too literally but I want to make sure that the record is straight.

 

[ImporterExporter]

The problem is you can't prove any of that.

You're also absolutely crazy if you think Gorman coached a bunch of nobodies to the cup. Prime Gottselig, Thompson, Coulter and Conacher in 34. Along with Charlie Gardiner. I'll give you 35 but I can't believe nobody (myself included) challenged you about 34.



Your words the first time were that he would have no issue playing a physical game. I counter by saying he won't play a physical game.. period. He's tough and he can take abuse, but he won't hit people. Maybe I'm taking your words too literally but I want to make sure that the record is straight.

I don't need to though.

I'm not the one who is being overly rigid saying that every player must fit every coach to a T in order to be successful. Teams aren't built like that in real life. You have players who do X, Y and Z. Some, if you're lucky can all of that. Do you think that every single player on a Gorman roster was a good to great forechecker and defensive ace???? It's nonsense.

And 1934 while a solid roster was hardly on the same level as Toronto, Montreal, Boston or NY. That's not even debatable.

Torono had Charlie Conacher, Busher Jackson, King Clancy, Joe Primeau, Red Horner, Hap Day and Ace Bailey.

Rangers had Bill Cook, Frank Boucher, Cecil Dillon, Bun Cook, Earl Seibert and Ching Johnson

Boston had more talent. Montreal had more talent.

Chicago had some talent, yes, but it was nowhere close to 4 other teams specifically.

 

[jarek]

I don't need to though.

I'm not the one who is being overly rigid saying that every player must fit every coach to a T in order to be successful. Teams aren't built like that in real life. You have players who do X, Y and Z. Some, if you're lucky can all of that. Do you think that every single player on a Gorman roster was a good to great forechecker and defensive ace???? It's nonsense.

And 1934 while a solid roster was hardly on the same level as Toronto, Montreal, Boston or NY. That's not even debatable.

Torono had Charlie Conacher, Busher Jackson, King Clancy, Joe Primeau, Red Horner, Hap Day and Ace Bailey.

Rangers had Bill Cook, Frank Boucher, Cecil Dillon, Bun Cook, Earl Seibert and Ching Johnson

Boston had more talent. Montreal had more talent.

Chicago had some talent, yes, but it was nowhere close to 4 other teams specifically.

To say they had nobody though is bordering on lunacy.

 

[ImporterExporter]

To say they had nobody though is bordering on lunacy.

As Obi Wan once said, "what I told was true, from a certain point of view".

Comparatively to other teams they did have nobody. IMO.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Where do you get this idea that Martinec had zero issues playing a physical game? I wouldn't call him soft but I've never seen, heard or read anything about him every playing physically. Is he tough? Certainly.. he had to be. However, he won't be pushing anyone around.

My main issue with Gorman is that your best and most important player doesn't jive with his style.

The Soviet book on Martinec was to physically abuse him (similar to how Canada did to Kharlamov).

 

[jarek]

The Soviet book on Martinec was to physically abuse him (similar to how Canada did to Kharlamov).

It never seemed to faze him though, right? Unless they attacked him to the point of injuring him, I always thought he mostly just shook it off and continued.

 

[Dreakmur]

I find it hilarious that a few posters have this rigid mindset that every single line and pairing needs to be filled with perfectly molded players that fit a coaching style. It's not based in reality, at all. The Pens just won 9 consecutive playoff series (2 cups) with the likes of Phil Kessel, Conor Sheary in their top 6. Neither of them forecheck. At all. And Mike Sullivan has preached and implemented an aggressive fore checking system. Shocking I know!

First of all, I was simply responding to your ridiculous claim that Frank Fosyton, Claude Giroux, and Vladimir Martinec were great forecheckers.

Kessel was a 2nd liner, and Sheary a 3rd liner.

So please don't make suggestive posts that make it out like I've ever said Giroux or Martinec are great fore checkers. They aren't. I readily admit that. But IMHO Frank Foyston and Punch Broadbent are both superb in that area and are more than capable of being the glue guys on their respective lines.

Punch Broadbent is likely a good fore-checker. Foyston is likely average.

Claude Giroux for the past 10 years has been one of the toughest players, pound for pound in the league.

Pound for pound?

If only there weight classes in the corners, he might still be playing center.

He plays an aggressive style and has routinely checked in Philly. Both ways. I've watched many Flyers games over the years, given I live 1.5 hours away. Is he great? No. Good? Probably not, on an ATD level, but he's certainly serviceable in the offensive zone going into the corners and winning battles.

Hey, I like Giroux too. He's gritty.

He's a guy who is probably average to begin with, playing out of position, which further diminishes what he brings in my books

Vlad Martinec while not a forechecker had zero issue playing a physical game, which was rare for Euro's in his time.

Ok, but who's forechecking in your coaches forechecking system?

My bottom 6 is littered with great, physical checking players.

Yes, the players who will rarely be on the ice are great at executing the system.