Not saying this holds any weight at all considering the sample size but I remember one game where Nico made Patrick look silly a few times on the face off dot and dominated his line, Patrick also took like three or four penalties that game. I just think Nico is a level above Patrick when it comes to hockey IQ, puck skills, compete level, and all around play. He is still growing into his body as well and the rate he produces at ES is amazing for an undersized teenager. Point production may have been close from January on but I really think Nico is just flat out a level ahead of Nolan and is the kind of player who has ceiling we really wont see for a few years once he gets bigger and plays on the PP1 for a whole year.
2017 nhl redraft 1-15
- Thread starter Castle8130
- Start date
Not saying this holds any weight at all considering the sample size but I remember one game where Nico made Patrick look silly a few times on the face off dot and dominated his line, Patrick also took like three or four penalties that game. I just think Nico is a level above Patrick when it comes to hockey IQ, puck skills, compete level, and all around play. He is still growing into his body as well and the rate he produces at ES is amazing for an undersized teenager. Point production may have been close from January on but I really think Nico is just flat out a level ahead of Nolan and is the kind of player who has ceiling we really wont see for a few years once he gets bigger and plays on the PP1 for a whole year.
Tripod
I hate this team
And that's all fair to say. Reality is we won't know for years how all these kids end up. All I was saying with Patrick was that he grew leaps and bounds as the season went on and a big part of that, was just sheer recovering from offseason surgery. And as a Flyers fan, we say how Giroux and Ghost took a year to recover from theirs and how this year was night and day compared to last years.
When dealing with these guys who are all around similar tiers, anything can happen. And I am reminded of all the Kadri vs Schenn threads. Or Couturier vs Zibanejad ones. Every year, it seems like they would flip flop compared to the year before on who was better. And I see that happening in this draft where every year, a different guy has the best year. This draft just did not have a McDavid type where you can confidently say that "that guy" will likely have the the best year, every year.
Nico had the best year 1. Maybe next year it's EP or Mittelstadt. Or Patrick. Who knows.
Petes2424
Registered User
- Aug 4, 2005
- 8,040
- 2,310
Until they spend some time in the NHL, nobody will know. Vilardi has his own issues. As for having a 6'6" C who will probably be playing good minutes in the NHL a year removed from the draft is a good start... and what it does prove is the majority of these so-called re-drafts, having him drop significantly, are ridiculous considering that very fact alone. Those same people were no doubt saying he's a project or will take 3-5 years to develop, etc, just this time last year.
The majority had never seen him play.
ConnorMcMullet
#12 Colby Cave
- Jun 10, 2017
- 10,293
- 18,030
1. Hischier
2. Petterson
3. Heiskanen
4. Patrick
5. Makar
6. Mittlestadt
7. Tolvanen
8. Chytil
9. Glass
10. Vilardi
11. Yamamoto
12. Thomas
13. Andersson
14. Necas
15. Veselainen
16: Rasmussen
17: Tippett
2. Petterson
3. Heiskanen
4. Patrick
5. Makar
6. Mittlestadt
7. Tolvanen
8. Chytil
9. Glass
10. Vilardi
11. Yamamoto
12. Thomas
13. Andersson
14. Necas
15. Veselainen
16: Rasmussen
17: Tippett
Elias Pettersson
I'm not a troll
- Jan 22, 2014
- 3,843
- 1,827
Vesalainen too low. Glass too high, although not because he played bad, but because others passed him due to great seasons. I'd flip Tolvanen and Makar also
Jumptheshark
Rebooting myself
TheGoldenJet
Registered User
Is it? I like Juuso Valimaki, but:
Record setting season for 18yo AHL D
vs
17th in scoring for WHL D (7th in PPG)
The three things i'm sure at is that Elias Pettersson is #1, Filip Chytil is top 10 and Casey Mittelstadt is outside the top 5 for me.
Lmao at record setting. Nice one.
Anyway. Even though scoring points is not the primary goal of a defenceman, I"ll bite. Yes you are absolutely correct. Jusso Valimaki was 17th in defencemen scoring in the WHL with 45 pointsin 43 games. However, only 5 of the 16 ahead of him were scoring at a point per game and all plaued at least about 10 games more than him (some 20+). So instead of picking and choosing a stat line that works to your benefit... why not add some context?
Like... Liljegren was 115th in AHL defencenceman scoring. 29th in AHL rookie defence scoring. With a whopping 3 points in 13 playoff games Liljegren watched his PPG continue to drop since the start of the year. On the same playing field at the WJC Valimaki clearly out performed Liljegren. So much so thst Thr Hockey News ranks Jusso about 20 spots ahead of Liljegren after the season.
But whatever. Dude was just 17th in scoring by a WHL defencemen. Liljegren is a record breaker lmao.
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Pavels Dog
Registered User
I don't even know what was supposedly record-setting about his season. From what I can tell Voynov outscored him at the same age in the same league, on a much worse team. Maybe the record of highest point-total in the AHL as an 18-year old swedish d-man? He did get a few more points than Lindholm and Kylington, who coincidentally were also on much worse teams.
TheGoldenJet
Registered User
Might want to do your homework next time. Liljegren did break Voynov’s record for AHL scoring (highest points per game mark) by an 18yo Dman (minimum 40GP). Only 6 other (high end) prospects on that list, but he did set a new record in a quality league against men.
You seem to have a personal stake in this argument. Maybe because you’re a Flames fan, and it’s been a rough season.
I like Valimaki. Him and Liljegren were both perceived as OFDs at the draft, but from what I’ve seen this season they are both developing into solid two-way Dmen at this stage of their careers.
And yes, 7th in WHL PPG is not bad for a D+1 Dman who was drafted in the mid 1st round, but overall Valimaki did not make as much progress this season as many hoped he would. His scoring rate has largely stagnated from his draft season to this year, which means much more than a five game sample size from an international tournament.
For context, Valimaki was outscored (both points and PPG) by the defensive specialist Cal Foote this year in the WHL, another 2017 1st rounder. Liljegren meanwhile had an excellent season for an 18yo defender in the AHL, against men.
But since you bring up international play, their numbers this year for their U20 national teams are nearly identical. Liljegren had the better summer showcase tournament, while Valimaki had the better WJC. Context is important for the WJC too: Valimaki was team Captain for the Finns and played in a leading role, whereas Liljegren played in a secondary role on the second pair behind Dahlin (until the gold medal game where he was bumped up to the top pair), which lowered his scoring clip. Overall he had a fine WJC in the role he was used in according to those who watched every game, as I did.
Liljegren’s overall placement against men in the AHL doesn’t mean a whole lot. Yes, guys who are 28yo and have NHL games under their belts are outscoring him this season, that doesn’t mean much in the big picture.
It’s still too early to say with either of these guys how they will turn out. I think both guys should have been taken higher at the time of the draft, but right now Id have Liljegren comfortably ahead of Valimaki heading into their respective D+2 years.
What record did Liljegren set then? It’s a bit dubious to extrapolate that he would have scored more points than Voynov based on his PPG which fell throughout the season. Regardless, Honka holds the record for most points by a D+1 rookie defenseman in the AHL and Ristolainen has the highest PPG, at least from those that have played over 15 games. Also, if you look at the scoring, only Ristolainen had a similar amount of secondary assists. Liljegren had one even strength primary point.
In Välimäki’s case, I’ll add that he had an excellent playoff run, and if you look at 5v5 scoring and primary point production, Välimäki was in top-3 during the regular season.
I’m not necessarily comparing them, but I feel like Välimäki has been slightly underrepresented during the season. I don’t think anyone of the Brännström-Liljegren-Välimäki trio has separated themselves from the others.
GoldenKnight
Registered User
My current list, extended to a top 20:
1. Hischier
2. Petterson
3. Patrick
4. Heiskanen
5. Mittelstadt
6. Makar
7. Tolvanen
8. Glass
9. Necas
10. Liljegren
11. Vilardi
12. Chytil
13. Andersson
14. Rasmussen
15. Brannstrom
16. Valimaki
17. Thomas
18. Tippett
19. Foote
20. Suzuki
HM: Frost, Vesalainen, Yamamoto, Timmins, Jokiharju
Based on draft pedigree (only one year has passed) and scouts' opinions at the time of the draft (eg. Bob's list), as well as the progress they've made this year based on my viewings of each player and their stats.
Some thoughts:
Vilardi was the hardest player to rank. He missed half a season, which did not help his stock, but came back on fire in the second half of his draft plus 1 year. Hard to compare his higher points per game against a guy like Glass, who played twice as many games and put up 102 points on the year in the process. Overall I left Vilardi at #11 where he was drafted, but I can see reasonable arguments for having him anywhere in the #7-14 range.
Call me a homer for having Suzuki in at #20 despite his lack of progress this year, but 100 points in the OHL is nothing to sneeze at. That said, I would not argue if any of the guys I listed as HM's were placed at #20 at Suzuki's expense.
Took Necas over Chytil, as Necas outplayed him at every level this year (Czech U20, WJC, EHT and WC). Chytil is a big riser for me (drafted at #21) but does not quite crack the top 10 as a result. Based on his AHL and NT play and numbers however, Chytil does slot in one spot ahead of Lias Andersson, who had the better draft pedigree but less impressive showings this year.
Took Valimaki over Foote just barely, more of an eye test and gut feel pick for me as Foote actually had better numbers in the WHL this year. No complaints for those who would flip these two, both players should make the show in a couple years.
Mittelstadt gets the coveted #5 spot as he was solid all year with a terrific WJC, and, most importantly, convinced me in his 6 game NHL stint that he is the real deal. Mittelstadt will be a key contributor for Buffalo next season.
Edited for spelling.
1. Hischier
2. Petterson
3. Patrick
4. Heiskanen
5. Mittelstadt
6. Makar
7. Tolvanen
8. Glass
9. Necas
10. Liljegren
11. Vilardi
12. Chytil
13. Andersson
14. Rasmussen
15. Brannstrom
16. Valimaki
17. Thomas
18. Tippett
19. Foote
20. Suzuki
HM: Frost, Vesalainen, Yamamoto, Timmins, Jokiharju
Based on draft pedigree (only one year has passed) and scouts' opinions at the time of the draft (eg. Bob's list), as well as the progress they've made this year based on my viewings of each player and their stats.
Some thoughts:
Vilardi was the hardest player to rank. He missed half a season, which did not help his stock, but came back on fire in the second half of his draft plus 1 year. Hard to compare his higher points per game against a guy like Glass, who played twice as many games and put up 102 points on the year in the process. Overall I left Vilardi at #11 where he was drafted, but I can see reasonable arguments for having him anywhere in the #7-14 range.
Call me a homer for having Suzuki in at #20 despite his lack of progress this year, but 100 points in the OHL is nothing to sneeze at. That said, I would not argue if any of the guys I listed as HM's were placed at #20 at Suzuki's expense.
Took Necas over Chytil, as Necas outplayed him at every level this year (Czech U20, WJC, EHT and WC). Chytil is a big riser for me (drafted at #21) but does not quite crack the top 10 as a result. Based on his AHL and NT play and numbers however, Chytil does slot in one spot ahead of Lias Andersson, who had the better draft pedigree but less impressive showings this year.
Took Valimaki over Foote just barely, more of an eye test and gut feel pick for me as Foote actually had better numbers in the WHL this year. No complaints for those who would flip these two, both players should make the show in a couple years.
Mittelstadt gets the coveted #5 spot as he was solid all year with a terrific WJC, and, most importantly, convinced me in his 6 game NHL stint that he is the real deal. Mittelstadt will be a key contributor for Buffalo next season.
Edited for spelling.
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TheGoldenJet
Registered User
Highest points per game average by an 18 year old AHL defenceman (minimum 40 games). It’s there in my post, and several hockey guys tweeted about it at the time.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
No need for hyperbole.
17th among U21D in points, 14th in PPG.
3rd in U20 PPG (9 players)
2nd in U19 PPG (3 players)
It's such a meaningless record though, you have to agree? Looking at it from a d+1 viewpoint makes a lot more sense, a player isn't worse because he turns 19 earlier in the same season.
Going point-per-game but setting the min-GP at 40 also ensures that you remove all the d-men that were too good to stay down the entire season, convenient. What's left is an extremely small sample size of not many impressive names. Liljegren has like 1 ES primary point and 55 games since his last goal, yet his season is referred to as "record breaking"..
That’s too specific to be considered an achievement. 6 defensemen have played over 15 games in the AHL during their D+1 seasons AFAIK, and by adding these restrictions you take out the PPG leader and the overall scoring leader (both with higher PPG than Liljegren). I guess it’s a nice tidbit, but it’s also worth noting that Liljegren’s PPG might have fallen further if he played as many games as Voynov.
Dack
Registered User
- Jun 16, 2014
- 3,914
- 3,545
You sir are absolutely right on all accounts.
I feel that trotting out "record breaking" in a season where Liljegren had 1 primary point at 5v5 is kind of misleading. It makes it sound like his season was similar to Petterssons or something and not that he had a slightly higher secondary point fueled points per game over a smaller sample size.
Valimaki was a monster 5v5 and had 2 less 5v5 points than Foote in almost 20 less games. At 5v5 Valimaki had the best primary points per game among D mem and the best points per game (In which he was in the top 50 in the league and pretty much equal to Rasmussen and Steel).
I agree with you though that none of them have actually separated themselves from the others largely because it's only been one year.
Hockeyisl1fe
Registered User
- Dec 8, 2016
- 2,368
- 793
Not a whole lot of love for Jokiharju when looking at the lists. I would rank him in the top 20 at his point, he was the best dman in the WJC for Finland and played an excellent season in the WHL. He also played some international games in the EHT before the WHC and he looked good there. Couldn't make it to the WHC only due to the lack of role for him.
TheGoldenJet
Registered User
I don’t agree, largely because it is very difficult to be an 18 year old defenceman in the AHL. Only high-end prospects, by and large, are capable of pulling it off as lineup regulars in such a physical men’s league like the AHL.
Actually, what this does is remove players with a small sample size. Morgan Rielly for example had 3 points in 14 AHL games at 18yo, but was left off the list due to not enough games played (he still would have ranked behind Liljegren’s points per game average if he was included).
1 Hischier
2 Patrick
3 Pettersson
4 Heiskanen
5 Necas
6 Chytil
7 Tolvanen
8 Middlestat
9 Glass
10 Vilardi
11 Andersson
12 Frost
13 Valimaki
14 Lind
15 Makar
16 Poehling
17 Vesalainen
18 Brannstorm
19 Hipponiemi
20 Jokiharizu
21 Liljegren
22 Rasmussen
23 Timmins
24 Foote
25 Joseph
26 Hague
27 Vakaalainen
28 Suzuki
29 Yamato
30 Thomas
31 Dipietro
2 Patrick
3 Pettersson
4 Heiskanen
5 Necas
6 Chytil
7 Tolvanen
8 Middlestat
9 Glass
10 Vilardi
11 Andersson
12 Frost
13 Valimaki
14 Lind
15 Makar
16 Poehling
17 Vesalainen
18 Brannstorm
19 Hipponiemi
20 Jokiharizu
21 Liljegren
22 Rasmussen
23 Timmins
24 Foote
25 Joseph
26 Hague
27 Vakaalainen
28 Suzuki
29 Yamato
30 Thomas
31 Dipietro
Wings4Life
Registered User
It's the Foote-Brännström-Liljegren-Välimäki-Vaakanainen group...5 defencemen that were taken consecutively in the middle first round of the 2017 draft.
In that group, it's a 4 horse race right now, as Vaakanainen lost ground on the others this year (and was drafted last, to be fair). It is still a little early to say which of the top 4 ends up as the best NHL defenceman. I feel Liljegren is ahead at this moment with Valimaki and Brännström right behind him.
Yeah, that group will be interesting to follow. I have seen very little of Foote outside like two AHL playoff games, so can't really comment on him. Vaakanainen is rightfully ranked behind the others, but he still quietly had a great season. He was the ice-time leader, 3rd in dman scoring and 1st in +/- for his Liiga team, nothing to write off. He isn't an offensive dynamo like some of the other dmen, but he has very solid tools (skating, size, IQ) and I definitely see realistic top-4 potential.
It’s cause he’s in the NHL. People on this site appreciate numbers in juniors and euro leagues more than NHL and AHL.
Thomas at 30?! Lol wow ok. Poehling ahead of him? Habs fan?
