2017-2018 Blues Discussion Thread Part Three

[Dbrownss]

Well, the premise of the deal for the Blues was that gaining Schenn and losing Lehtera would make the Blues MORE competitive immediately and give our prospects time to bring up the rear. That premise seems to be failing b/c of the general collapse of the rest of the roster and the coaching and the team. The Blues, who gave up very good prospects for the immediate impact veteran and trading a boat anchor are going to miss the PO's. The Flyers got the prospects, got the boat anchor and are going to make the playoffs. IF DA had known that the entire team was going to go to ____ in a hand basket, he probably doesn't make that trade. Schenn will need to maintain his excellent play and extend with the Blues to make this deal even remotely palatable.

Notwithstanding, it's hard to deny that most of us would be licking our chops at the idea of Bill Armstrong having an 11OA pick. If there is one guy who has been exemplary with the Blues, it seems to be BA. It's a kick in the groin to have the worst regular season in years and then not even have your first round pick.

One of our posters immediately objected to the Schenn deal in the draft thread...saying that trading our firsts away year after year was killing the team. I won't name him here but the Philly deal wasn't roundly applauded by everyone when it was executed and was only ameliorated by the Reaves deal.

I'd say drafting Kostin was supposed to make up for the 2018 pick...and it still might since Kostin was considered a high pick untill his surgery ended his season. I dont think we can really shrug off losing a potential 11th but given the prospect depth, it can be absorbed...unless another Barzel pops up.

Sense seems to be in this draft that there is drop off after top 8 or so and not huge difference between picking 11 and 25.

that's what Ive heard...but we always hear about the drop off then a year later....we're asking "how the heck did he drop"?

 

[LetsGoBooze]

Instead of worrying about the picks we moved for Schenn, Im just thrilled DA had the stones to move Stastny at the deadline.

 

[EastonBlues22]

Not sure where you got that but allow me to disagree. Every year at the draft (2016 perfect example) teams pay to move up.

That's the difference between "consensus" tiers and specific lists. Fans usually talk about the former, and specific teams always act on the latter (I would assume). Specific lists almost always have outliers that buck consensus placement, and that generates action between two parties that don't see things the same way.

The Blues moved up a couple of spots to take Tage Thompson, for example, because he was the last available prospect on their list with a 1st round grade and they didn't want to see him get taken in the two picks before theirs. If the Capitals had felt the same way, they probably just draft Thompson themselves and the trade never takes place. If Thompson didn't have a 1st round grade from either team, the trade likely doesn't happen, either.

 

[stl76]

Was merely questioning 11 is same as 25 this year and the dropoff at 8 (bolded).

Yeah, I get that...and I am not even saying you're wrong. I'm just saying you're not doing a very good job of arguing your point

 

[Dbrownss]

Instead of worrying about the picks we moved for Schenn, Im just thrilled DA had the stones to move Stastny at the deadline.

It's still amusing to hear pundits complain about the trade and how it didn't make sense. It also sheds light on "playoffs or bust" from ownership is nonsense too. DA sold a prime piece and was willing to move other vetern players and would not budge on moving top prospects. While he is to blame for the roster put together, he's not making panic moves to save his butt.

 

[carter333167]

All in all, I would say that the board is absorbing this tire fire of a season with great aplomb. We seem to be more resilient than the team.

 

[Shwabeal]

All in all, I would say that the board is absorbing this tire fire of a season with great aplomb. We seem to be more resilient than the team.

Helps when we have some nice prospects to look forward to

 

[simon IC]

All in all, I would say that the board is absorbing this tire fire of a season with great aplomb. We seem to be more resilient than the team.

Lol, even the "Trade for Parayko" threads are unusually polite.

 

[Robb_K]

Nice break for The Blues that a "faceoff violation" was called a penalty after the faceoff was over, and regular play started.

 

[mw2noobbuster]

That faceoff violation rule is such crap. The league and refs just need to have more impact on a game, they crave it.

 

[Reality Czech]

It's still amusing to hear pundits complain about the trade and how it didn't make sense. It also sheds light on "playoffs or bust" from ownership is nonsense too. DA sold a prime piece and was willing to move other vetern players and would not budge on moving top prospects. While he is to blame for the roster put together, he's not making panic moves to save his butt.

Yeah, it would only not make sense to people who have been observing the team from a distance and looking at the standings all year. Within the proper context it's easy to understand.

I'm not a fan of making a trade for the sake of it, but something had to change with this team. And he didn't only do it to shake things up, the draft pick and Foley will help us in the future. Really, the team's poor play forced Army's hand. He decided to act, instead of sit back, and I give him credit for that.

It is interesting to see the Stastny lovefest going on right now. Many Blues fans tired of him, yet he's getting all kinds of credit now. Just goes to show that a player's role on a team is so important to how people perceive him. He was asked to do a lot of the dirty work here on defense and PK, which doesn't get a guy a lot of attention, but he looks a lot better playing a different role on a much more talented team offensively. Happy for him.

 

[TruBlu]

Yeah, it would only not make sense to people who have been observing the team from a distance and looking at the standings all year. Within the proper context it's easy to understand.

I'm not a fan of making a trade for the sake of it, but something had to change with this team. And he didn't only do it to shake things up, the draft pick and Foley will help us in the future. Really, the team's poor play forced Army's hand. He decided to act, instead of sit back, and I give him credit for that.

It is interesting to see the Stastny lovefest going on right now. Many Blues fans tired of him, yet he's getting all kinds of credit now. Just goes to show that a player's role on a team is so important to how people perceive him. He was asked to do a lot of the dirty work here on defense and PK, which doesn't get a guy a lot of attention, but he looks a lot better playing a different role on a much more talented team offensively. Happy for him.

As am I. Credit to DA for making the trade and getting something. No way DA trades him if he feels we have an inkling of a chance to do anyting in the playoffs, much less trading him to a divisional rival. I know DA has gotten a lot of flack from a lot of people, but I challenge them to look back over the last couple of years at what he's done. He clearly has turned his sights to the vision of a younger, faster, skilled team. Almost every move he's made has been for picks/prospects, dropping aging vets, or trades for young roster players that fit in our young core. Just a couple of summers ago many were complaining that he lacked a clear vision, and no one knew where he was taking the team. Once the team is adequately stocked in all positions with a new core, I don't have any doubt he'll start looking to picking up UFA's to strengthen areas of need. We aren't there yet.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Which is better, landing schenn or getting 2 firs rounders back in deals for Reaves and stastny?

 

[Davimir Tarablad]

Which is better, landing schenn or getting 2 firs rounders back in deals for Reaves and stastny?

Schenn easily

 

[carter333167]

Which is better, landing schenn or getting 2 firs rounders back in deals for Reaves and stastny?

In terms of pure asset value, it's probably:

1. Reaves deal--we gave up very little
2. Shattenkirk deal--we gave up very little
3. Stas rental for a first and good prospect--we gave up very little
4. Schenn/Lehtera swap for Morgan Frost (or Toli) and top 15 2018 pick.--we gave up a lot

This is all subject to change depending on how the Philly prospects develop, how Schenn plays over three years and whether he extends with the Blues. It's best to look at this deal in a few years to really gauge how it worked out for the Blues vis a vis the Flyers.

An interesting point is observed when one examines why the Schenn deal was so expensive....b/c it included Philly taking on the baggage of a $5 million dollar Armstrong mistake. GM mistakes are costly and, while Armstrong isn't a horrible GM, he hasn't been mistake free. Juxtapose Armstrong with Poile over the last few years...has Poile made any big mistakes and how many aggressive and novel moves has he made that are directly contributing to his team's success?

 

[Celtic Note]

Yeah, it would only not make sense to people who have been observing the team from a distance and looking at the standings all year. Within the proper context it's easy to understand.

I'm not a fan of making a trade for the sake of it, but something had to change with this team. And he didn't only do it to shake things up, the draft pick and Foley will help us in the future. Really, the team's poor play forced Army's hand. He decided to act, instead of sit back, and I give him credit for that.

It is interesting to see the Stastny lovefest going on right now. Many Blues fans tired of him, yet he's getting all kinds of credit now. Just goes to show that a player's role on a team is so important to how people perceive him. He was asked to do a lot of the dirty work here on defense and PK, which doesn't get a guy a lot of attention, but he looks a lot better playing a different role on a much more talented team offensively. Happy for him.

I don’t think there is a Stastny lovefest at all. What people seem to be saying is that by moving him we have created a huge hole. That hole will be challenging to fill. If we simply end up with Foley and a 1st then it’s a negative impact to the team over the next few years. Those years are critical because your core is in its prime right now.

I am sure a lot of our fanbase would love to swap Stastny for a better center. But that hasn’t happened yet. If we get a better center, then the trade makes sense (assuming we don’t create a large hole or overspend cap to do it).

The people saying this trade could end up a mistake aren’t doing it because they love Stastny. They just see the massive hole created in doing so. Army has a way of not being able to fill roster holes without creating new ones. And even when he fills those holes, it is often too late. So, I can see why people are leery of the trade ramifications.

 

[TruBlu]

I don’t think there is a Stastny lovefest at all. What people seem to be saying is that by moving him we have created a huge hole. That hole will be challenging to fill. If we simply end up with Foley and a 1st then it’s a negative impact to the team over the next few years. Those years are critical because your core is in its prime right now.

I am sure a lot of our fanbase would love to swap Stastny for a better center. But that hasn’t happened yet. If we get a better center, then the trade makes sense (assuming we don’t create a large hole or overspend cap to do it).

The people saying this trade could end up a mistake aren’t doing it because they love Stastny. They just see the massive hole created in doing so. Army has a way of not being able to fill roster holes without creating new ones. And even when he fills those holes, it is often too late. So, I can see why people are leery of the trade ramifications.

In all fairness, though, Stastny was a UFA with the ability to walk. There is no guarantee that he would have signed here if not for overpayment, which is exactly why he signed here in the first place. He can still come back here in a few months if he absolutely wanted to be here. Yes, we have a big hole to fill with his departure, but that hole was really already there to begin with up until the moment Stastny resigned. I don't think there is any way Stastny's trade could be looked at in a bad light. We got back a first and the type of prospect that we really need in our system. I'm hoping that one of Kostin or Foley can become that power forward that pounds the front of the net. We've all seen a lack of that since the departure of Backes.

 

[carter333167]

The Blues probably still have about the same opportunity as Winnipeg and Colorado at signing Stas....assuming we can get the house in order and make this look like a team with an immediate future.

The outlier might be a random huge offer for Stas if his numbers keep popping on the line with Laine.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

In terms of pure asset value, it's probably:

1. Reaves deal--we gave up very little
2. Shattenkirk deal--we gave up very little
3. Stas rental for a first and good prospect--we gave up very little
4. Schenn/Lehtera swap for Morgan Frost (or Toli) and top 15 2018 pick.--we gave up a lot

This is all subject to change depending on how the Philly prospects develop, how Schenn plays over three years and whether he extends with the Blues. It's best to look at this deal in a few years to really gauge how it worked out for the Blues vis a vis the Flyers.

An interesting point is observed when one examines why the Schenn deal was so expensive....b/c it included Philly taking on the baggage of a $5 million dollar Armstrong mistake. GM mistakes are costly and, while Armstrong isn't a horrible GM, he hasn't been mistake free. Juxtapose Armstrong with Poile over the last few years...has Poile made any big mistakes and how many aggressive and novel moves has he made that are directly contributing to his team's success?

I don't know if it's fair to include Frost or Tolvanens current value. Sure it hurts more, but with hindsight they would simply not be available at 27.

 

[carter333167]

I don't know if it's fair to include Frost or Tolvanens current value. Sure it hurts more, but with hindsight they would simply not be available at 27.

What if we had traded the 20th pick and the team to whom we traded the pick chose Robert Thomas? Would we say that it wouldn't be fair to judge the trade by the player acquired vs Robert Thomas because, in hindsight (i.e., in a redraft), Robert Thomas would go much higher than pick 20?

We can only judge the trade by the best players available in the draft at the time we traded the pick. Obviously, none of us have Bill Armstrong's draft sheet but Toli was definitely on everyone's radar at that point of the draft and was rumored to be high on the Blues' sheet. Frost may also have been ranked highly by Armstrong.

Nothwithstanding all of the above, two first round picks is a very high price for any trade, particularly when one of the firsts might be a top 15. I think the other three transactions were clearly low risk, high return transactions b/c we really gave up very little. The Schenn deal was a high risk transaction b/c we gave up a lot.

The ultimate point might be that Doug Armstrong has spent a lot of first round picks during his tenure on trades for existing roster players. I wish he had simply kept some or most of the picks b/c Bill Armstrong seems to be exceptional at choosing good players and generally better at his job than Doug Armstrong.

 

[Reality Czech]

I don’t think there is a Stastny lovefest at all. What people seem to be saying is that by moving him we have created a huge hole. That hole will be challenging to fill. If we simply end up with Foley and a 1st then it’s a negative impact to the team over the next few years. Those years are critical because your core is in its prime right now.

I am sure a lot of our fanbase would love to swap Stastny for a better center. But that hasn’t happened yet. If we get a better center, then the trade makes sense (assuming we don’t create a large hole or overspend cap to do it).

The people saying this trade could end up a mistake aren’t doing it because they love Stastny. They just see the massive hole created in doing so. Army has a way of not being able to fill roster holes without creating new ones. And even when he fills those holes, it is often too late. So, I can see why people are leery of the trade ramifications.

Just to clarify, I was referring to the Stastny lovefest around the NHL. People talking about what a solid pickup it was for the Jets, perhaps the best pickup of the whole NHL trade deadline. Analysts refer to him as a significant piece for a contending team while many Blues fans couldn't wait to get rid of him. That's what I meant.

As for whether or not the trade was a mistake, we will see. Maybe Stastny is willing to come back, or if not I don't think it will be a huge loss. Sure, he was a solid guy here but it's not like he made the team great. Yes, we have created a huge hole for about 25 games but only because the team indicated they were not ready to contend. They will need to address it one way or another next year, but I don't think anyone can blame Army for the trade considering how the team had been playing.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

What if we had traded the 20th pick and the team to whom we traded the pick chose Robert Thomas? Would we say that it wouldn't be fair to judge the trade by the player acquired vs Robert Thomas because, in hindsight (i.e., in a redraft), Robert Thomas would go much higher than pick 20?

We can only judge the trade by the best players available in the draft at the time we traded the pick. Obviously, none of us have Bill Armstrong's draft sheet but Toli was definitely on everyone's radar at that point of the draft and was rumored to be high on the Blues' sheet. Frost may also have been ranked highly by Armstrong.

Nothwithstanding all of the above, two first round picks is a very high price for any trade, particularly when one of the firsts might be a top 15. I think the other three transactions were clearly low risk, high return transactions b/c we really gave up very little. The Schenn deal was a high risk transaction b/c we gave up a lot.

The ultimate point might be that Doug Armstrong has spent a lot of first round picks during his tenure on trades for existing roster players. I wish he had simply kept some or most of the picks b/c Bill Armstrong seems to be exceptional at choosing good players and generally better at his job than Doug Armstrong.

This seems like a semantics argument. I'm saying that GMs can only work with information they have and Tolvanens breakout season was far from certain. I'm my eyes tolvanen turning into a star or flaming out doesn't really change how I view the trade.

 

[LastWordArmy]

Some thoughts on Robert Thomas after seeing him last night.

Niagara IceDogs at Hamilton Bulldogs: Kirill Maksimov Steals the Show

 

[LetsGoBooze]

Which is better, landing schenn or getting 2 firs rounders back in deals for Reaves and stastny?

D. All of the Above.

 

[Old Blueser]

Given the amount of hope we are placing in the future and the development of prospects, who here thinks Yeo is the man for that job?

On the other hand, I can't root for the Blues to lose and miss the playoffs, and if they stay in he definitely keeps his job.

!@$#%^ Blues. Didn't like the Yeo hire to start.