Vincenzo Arelliti
He Can't Play Center
If Gunnar goes the other way we have roughly 5M to work with at the deadline because of LTIR, I believe.
2017-2018 Blues Discussion Thread Part Three
- Thread starter Vladys Gumption
- Start date
- Status
Hey Guys,
Isles fan coming in peace. I wasn't sure where to post this question, so putting it in here because it's about Schwartz and who will fill his spot. I'm in a pool and want to know if Sobotka will permanently be filling that spot OR are you just trying out different players and if so, what other options will you guys try at top 3 wing?
If this belongs in another thread, let me know and I'll delete this one and repost it.
Isles fan coming in peace. I wasn't sure where to post this question, so putting it in here because it's about Schwartz and who will fill his spot. I'm in a pool and want to know if Sobotka will permanently be filling that spot OR are you just trying out different players and if so, what other options will you guys try at top 3 wing?
If this belongs in another thread, let me know and I'll delete this one and repost it.
wannabebluesplayer
Registered User
- Apr 16, 2012
- 1,359
- 466
I think you're okay here. As of right now, I think they're trying different players. Jaskin has primarily been on the right side of Schenn and Steen was moved to the left since Schwartz got hurt. My guess is they stick with that for a bit. Sobotka has been playing on the LW side of Stastny and Tarasenko. If you're looking for a player to fill in, Sobotka wouldn't be my first choice but he wouldn't be an awful one. The hope is probably that Steen picks up his game here. Guys, please correct me if you think I'm wrong.
PiggySmalls
Oink Oink MF
- Mar 7, 2015
- 6,107
- 3,516
Sobotka will more then likely continue to fill that top 6 spot. If the lines go stale he might switch with Steen from time to time. But as of now Blues really don't have a better option then Sobie to fill that spot.
Vladys Gumption
Colt55
I don't see Sobotka moving out of the top six. He was in it when we were healthy so I don't know why we'd change that up now that we are shorthanded.
bleedblue1223
Registered User
- Jan 21, 2011
- 51,862
- 14,814
Sobotka was already in the top 6, so not really a big change in his role, so his production will be the same as it was. I don't think there are any hidden gems to sneak that will provide much production while Schwartz is out.
David Dennison
I'm a tariff, man.
Even if he is technically on the 3rd line at ES, he still plays both the PP and PK so he will be among the top 6 forwards in TOI.
who could have foreseen a December slump after an impressive start to the season? Like, it’s completely unimaginable. Not like this happens every year at all. Completely shocking.
Last edited:
mw2noobbuster
Registered User
I'm happy we're slumping with these guys on IR. It means we can be excited that they can return to form when they come back.
STL fan in MN
Registered User
- Aug 16, 2007
- 7,095
- 3,940
This is incorrect. That’s not how LTIR works. LTIR allows a team to exceed the Cap by the Cap hit of the player on LTIR; it does not provide extra cap room that can be banked for later. When the injured player returns, they have to fit him under the Cap again.
The only way LTIR really helps in that way is when there is a season ending injury but then the player magically returns during the playoffs (where there is no Salary Cap) like the Hawks were able to do a few years ago when Kane broke his collarbone. So the Hawks were able to have both Kane and the guy they traded for with his opened cap space in the playoffs. Fabbri would meet that situation for the Blues but 1. he doesn’t make very much and 2. it’s already been spent.
The Blues have virtually no cap room and will not have some big banked amount of cap space at the trade deadline. Any trade will pretty have to be dollars out matching or exceeding dollars in to make it work under the Cap.
If the Blues trade Gunnar, they can add someone very close to his cap hit of $2.9M in return (or a separate deal). If they wanted to add someone making more, the Blues would have to shed additional player(s) currently on the roster to open up the cap space needed.
I believe you have misunderstood his assertion, because the statement that the Blues would have $5m in cap space if Gunnarsson isn't wrong.
Yes, LTIR can't be banked, but we don't need any banked space to have that amount.
Our roster of players who will return this season is some arrangement of...
Schwartz - Schenn - Tarasenko
Steen - Stastny - Jaškin
Sobotka - Berglund - Barbashev
Upshall - Brodziak - Sundqvist
Pääjärvi/Thorburn
Edmundson - Pietrangelo
Bouwmeester - Parayko
Dunn - Bortuzzo
Gunnarsson
Allen
Hutton
The combined cap hit of those 23 players is $72,639,167. So right now we have $2,360,833 of usable cap space that wouldn't be impacted by players coming off LTIR.
If we trade Gunnarsson, we have one open roster spot and have $5,260,833 in cap space without using any banked space.
Edit: Part of the confusion might be using the term "cap space". Saying we have that cap space isn't really technically correct, but in any trade we can take on an increased cap hit of ~$2.3m and be cap compliant.
STL fan in MN
Registered User
- Aug 16, 2007
- 7,095
- 3,940
I don’t believe that’s correct. All of the callup and guys on regular IR count against the Cap too (even if just a prorated basis). And those call ups are slowly eating away the little cap space the Blues had. You can’t just count the 23 guys you counted. You have to also count the other player (or any player that’s on or been on regular IR) when they’re on the roster.
And the Blues are going to need to keep some cap wiggle room for future callups as well.
It’s all right here.
St. Louis Blues - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps
Yes, call ups and IR players count towards the cap. LTIR counts to, but you can exceed the cap by their cap hit... so it's best to simply just ignore players who have season ending injuries from the calculations.
Capfriendly is a very good source of information, but it also isn't about showing you exactly how teams can have the most flexibility. It is about showing you the situation now. For example, we could put Schwartz on LTIR but we are choosing not to. So Capfriendly continues to count him in their calculation, as well as the 15th forward we have added. It distorts the picture when looking ahead.
Call ups can only eat away at your ability to "bank" cap space. They can't eat away at future cap space in the season. At any point in the season you can have a roster of players with a cap hit totalling $75m and you will be cap compliant (and you can exceed it if you have LTIR or banked cap space).
STL fan in MN
Registered User
- Aug 16, 2007
- 7,095
- 3,940
I am well aware of all of that. Thus why I have the position I do.
Please show the math working with the Blues having ~ $2.3M in additional Cap space at the deadline.
We don't have ~$2.3m of additional space at the deadline. It has nothing to do specifically with the deadline. Again, this has nothing to do with banking cap space. We aren't banking cap space, the injuries are preventing us from doing that. We don't need to bank cap space to have this flexibility.
The math is simple, look at our 23 man roster above. It carries a cap hit of ~$72.65m.
You understand that you can't exceed the prorated cap during the regular season, then that means we aren't eating into our future ability to carry a roster with a cap hit of $75m. So we can add a player with a cap hit ~$2.3m higher than the player that he is replacing.
Would doing so limit our flexibility? Absolutely, that's another argument though.
STL fan in MN
Registered User
- Aug 16, 2007
- 7,095
- 3,940
Ok, Im not seeing why you think they’re projecting to $72.65M for the entire season. To me, you seem to be only counting those 23. Why? The Blues have used 29 different players. Blais counts while he’s been on the roster. Bennett counts, Schmaltz counts, Prosser counts, and I’m pretty sure Bouw was never on LTIR, just IR when he was out with the broken ankle, so he’s counted the entire season too.
Cap friendly shows the Blues have cap space today of $79.2k and projects to have deadline cap space of $224k. I am just not seeing where this extra $2.3M comes from. You can’t just count the 23 you counted to get to that number. It’s not that simple.
Majorityof1
Registered User
We have actually banked a very tiny bit of cap this year (look at cap friendly difference between projected and actual cap). So those 6 players did not diminish our cap. When they were up, someone else was down. We have always stayed at or under the cap. That means moving forward when we get healthy and trim our roster to the 23, we will basically have to maintain an total annual salary of 75M or less to stay cap compliant. So if you add up all the 23 players we will keep, that leaves the amount Alklha said, plus the ever so small portion we have managed to bank by running 21/22 man rosters. According to my math, he is right.
On cap friendly, the cap space today is for a 25 man roster without using our LTIR support. Injured players count against the cap, so we actually have 27 guys for that total. The deadline cap space is how much space we will have at the cap if we keep this exact same roster all year. That is how much we are banking by being that $79k under the cap. For every day you are under, you can exceed the cap by a small fraction of it down the road. So that number assumes we will keep running this exact same line up from here on out. However, once we send Schmaltz and Blias (or whoever down), we gain cap space. We can also go over the cap because Fabbri and Sanford give us LTIR relief. So again, Alklha is right and I think you are misinterpreting what cap friendly is saying imo.
Ah, okay. I understand the confusion now. I'm terrible at explaining this stuff.
Each teams cap situation is calculated daily, on a prorated basis, and you must be cap compliant every day. Because you must be cap compliant every day, that means it is impossible to exceed the cap if you have a roster that totals $75m or less on any given day.
The roster I laid out above would give us space to take on ~$2.3m in cap in a trade. Anything under $75m on that roster is cap compliant.
What about all the other players that were on the roster? They have already counted towards the cap on a prorated basis for the days they were on the roster. The player we would acquire is the same, we aren't taking his increased cap hit for the entire season, just the days he is on our roster.
Now, it is important to not I am not talking about "deadline space"/"banked space". Our cap situation for most of this season has been right around $75m because of the injuries. That has prevented us from banking much cap space. Arizona's page highlights what banking cap space can do at the deadline. Our situation is entirely about our 23 man roster not totalling close to $75m.
The current reason we only have ~$80k is because we have 25 players counting towards the cap because of the injury situation.
Renard
Registered User
I attended the last two home games. We scored one goal in six periods. The power play didn't score, and didn't even get good chances. Tarasenko appears to have lost his confidence and Schenn was not noticeable.
Armstrong better pull a rabbit out of a hat, and soon, or the Scottrade will be pretty empty for the rest of the season.
Armstrong better pull a rabbit out of a hat, and soon, or the Scottrade will be pretty empty for the rest of the season.
Evocable Manager
Registered User
STL fan in MN
Registered User
- Aug 16, 2007
- 7,095
- 3,940
Exactly. The sky is not falling.
Petro and Bouw should be back within a few days (sounds like Petro is good to go but has to wait until tomorrow to come off IR).
Schwartz hurts but he’ll still be back with about 2 months left in the season.
I don’t care about the President’s Trophy. Home ice in the playoffs is nice but what matters is the team peaking in the playoffs and being relatively healthy then. They’ve banked a lot of points early in the season so they’ve got a pretty good cushion. These injuries may drop them down the standings a bit but no need to make a panic move IMO.
They likely still need a middle-6 RW at some point but they have until late Feb to find a deal.
- Jul 4, 2014
- 7,857
- 8,192
The sky may not be falling, but I think some really amazing individual performances early in the season managed to mask the fact that this team really lacks an identity, especially from an offensive perspective. I look at how we move the puck north-south and wonder where the “play fast” directive disappeared to.
While there were plenty of mistakes from the Dunn-Schmaltz pairing Thursday, it was refreshing to see them move the puck up ice with their feet instead of relying on the (fest or famine) stretch pass or lumbering up the ice with short passes through the neutral zone while the opposition was able to easily establish its defensive position. There is also way too much east-west, and slowly at that, in our neutral zone play and we're turning the puck over A LOT when we should be controlling it and moving it up the ice. We’re no longer the big team that can grind out opponents with a dump-chase-strong forecheck game, and we’re either too slow or not playing with enough pace to effectively establish a transition offense. We just seem to be hoping for an opportunity to present itself without really doing much of anything to try to create those opportunities until the puck is already behind the goal line, and we just don't have the personnel to rely on winning board battles. And don't even get me started about our net-front presence. Outside a precious few, we don't seem to have anyone willing to go to the net and stay there to clean up rebounds. We're generating a lot of shots, but it is a lot of one-and-done and multiple shots from the perimeter and far too little danger or jam.
Now with a slumping power play, a missing Schwartz and a frustrated Tarasenko, I think the idea that we’re going to struggle to score goals for a while until we change something up isn’t so far-fetched. Frankly, I’m really looking forward to the “prospect” of guys like Thomas and Kyrou coming in, Fabbri coming back, and Dunn and Schmaltz taking a bigger role so we can get some pace in our game. I just really hope that it isn’t being coached out of them and that Yeo isn’t turning into Hitch 2.0 like some feared when he took over. I know Yeo's style is to activate the D much more than Hitch ever did, but that happens at the end of the process of moving the puck into the offensive zone and I think so many opportunities are being squandered way before that even becomes an option. Just my $0.02
While there were plenty of mistakes from the Dunn-Schmaltz pairing Thursday, it was refreshing to see them move the puck up ice with their feet instead of relying on the (fest or famine) stretch pass or lumbering up the ice with short passes through the neutral zone while the opposition was able to easily establish its defensive position. There is also way too much east-west, and slowly at that, in our neutral zone play and we're turning the puck over A LOT when we should be controlling it and moving it up the ice. We’re no longer the big team that can grind out opponents with a dump-chase-strong forecheck game, and we’re either too slow or not playing with enough pace to effectively establish a transition offense. We just seem to be hoping for an opportunity to present itself without really doing much of anything to try to create those opportunities until the puck is already behind the goal line, and we just don't have the personnel to rely on winning board battles. And don't even get me started about our net-front presence. Outside a precious few, we don't seem to have anyone willing to go to the net and stay there to clean up rebounds. We're generating a lot of shots, but it is a lot of one-and-done and multiple shots from the perimeter and far too little danger or jam.
Now with a slumping power play, a missing Schwartz and a frustrated Tarasenko, I think the idea that we’re going to struggle to score goals for a while until we change something up isn’t so far-fetched. Frankly, I’m really looking forward to the “prospect” of guys like Thomas and Kyrou coming in, Fabbri coming back, and Dunn and Schmaltz taking a bigger role so we can get some pace in our game. I just really hope that it isn’t being coached out of them and that Yeo isn’t turning into Hitch 2.0 like some feared when he took over. I know Yeo's style is to activate the D much more than Hitch ever did, but that happens at the end of the process of moving the puck into the offensive zone and I think so many opportunities are being squandered way before that even becomes an option. Just my $0.02
I’m hesitant to get too worked up over the past couple games where the teams been missing their top pair and best forward. The PP has sucked all year and that is a concern that needs to get figured out sooner rather than later. The biggest thing for me is weathering the storm until they at least get Petro back and trying to address the 2 RW spot at some point before the TDL.
Dbrownss
Registered User
- Jan 5, 2014
- 31,359
- 8,734
Schenn isn't going to be noticable anchored by Steen and Jaskin. Those slow wall cyclers are best with Stastny.
I dont see how anybody can be suprised by the team struggling. Look at who's missing. If you take Kucherov, Hedman, Stralman and didn't havr Point to start the season...along with Stamkos forgetting how to do his job. How do you think Tampa would look. This team has taken several hits that no team can take in stride. If they were struggling like this at full health for 5 games or so...then there's cause for concern.
My only concern is the PP, everything is wrong with it. It's so weak that teams have full liberty to run an extremely aggressive PK with immuity
- Status
