2017-18 Detroit Red Wings Grades

Discussion in 'Detroit Red Wings' started by Redder Winger, Apr 6, 2018.

  1. Shaman464

    Shaman464 #FireHolland

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    This is relative to the team not the league. He took major steps forward while most players either stayed the same or regressed. Compared to Barzal or McDavid or some other young stud he’s a B at best.
     
  2. Dotter

    Dotter 11cups25 #hockeytown

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    Let me get this straight... Kenny gets an F (worse failure in the grading system) but called up a guy who you said "didn't deserve a callup" which turned out and excelled that you essentially gave a B+?

    Your bias is very transparent.

    Our most physical player and one of the top PKers scored 34 points thus far got a C-, the other no physical player (equally top PKer) scored 31 but makes $500k less gets a B-? Something not adding up. Adbdelkader brings more to the table.

    Kenny gets no credit for calling up Svech, apparently:

    You also failed to mention that Ken Holland aquired more draft picks this season than any given team has had in the NHL since 2002.

    I appreciate the time you took to make this thread, but your agenda is grossly transparent. I wish you had the ability to take a step back and re-read what you write so you can see how others read your posts.
     
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  3. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    What's my agenda?
     
  4. Dotter

    Dotter 11cups25 #hockeytown

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    I don't think you've made too many posts not trashing KH. In fact, you're known to often cherry pick stats to make things seem as they are not -- and Hockey has to be one of the easiest sports to cherry pick, everyone knows you can make nearly any situation look good or bad as you wish by cherry picking. Like I said, you really need to learn how to take a step back and re-read your own posts from a logical standpoint so you can see how you personally come off around here.

    You're an intellegent hockey guy. But you seem to like to often nudge things to make everything seem so chicken little. I think the last 2 seasons (from a rebuilding standpoint) have been exciting.
     
  5. kliq

    kliq Registered User

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    lol I knew you would counter with something condescending. Aren't you the one who says you "don't want a flame war".

    As I said before, I think that the deadline typically brings in the greatest return when moving players for future assets. I don't think this logic is exclusive to UFA's. UFA's are the most commonly traded players at the deadline for obvious reasons, but a guy like Tatar proves that you can trade non UFA's as well.

    I get you are trying to use Tatar as an example of someone who was traded with term left and brought back a great return against my argument, and that you are trying to create a narrative that "I can't see that because I'm just not as clever as you" but I never said that a UFA at the deadline brings in more then then what a player like Tatar brings. I think you may be confusing your arguments again since you have so many simultaneous arguements going on.

    I know you have argued with other's that Green should have been traded last year, but this thread is supposed to be grading what players/management did this year (2017/18).

    I am not going to use not trading Green in 2016/17 against Holland this year. Your logic of "Well Tatar was traded with term left, so Green should have been traded with term" is not really applicable when evaluating THIS YEAR. So keeping the context to the current year, I dont think Green brings in a greater return last December then what he brings in February.

    If you want to start a thread regarding what Holland should have or should not have done last year, feel free.

    Again, agree to disagree. We can leave it at that, or I guess feel free to throw more condescending remarks my way.
     
  6. Pavels Dog

    Pavels Dog Registered User

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    I would compare it more like putting a bunch of C-students into Harvard. Give an F to the guy who put them there I guess (Holland). But if ~25 teams have more players that play at an A-or-B level then for sure, a team full of C-players will finish very low.

    Team rating I'd probably say D or higher. F would indicate failure in every way imo. F is what you'd give a team that has made the ECF and goes on to finish bottom 3 after making a horrible trade that loses them vital draft picks while looking poised to also lose their best player in his prime. We've had a decent year for what it was supposed to be; a rebuilding year. We've added picks, we've developed youngsters, we'll get a high pick.

    But everyone can rate differently. For me it's not an automatic F if they're low in the standings and an automatic A if they're high though.
     
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  7. kliq

    kliq Registered User

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    Its so subjective, I agree with you.
    To truly do this fairly, we would almost have to eliminate all bias which is impossible.

    To do this fairly you would almost need a person who has zero clue about contracts that had never watched the Wings play prior to this year. But obviously that's pretty much impossible. With the cap, and contract info out there, people let that influence their opinions. I'm sure I'm included.
     
  8. CaptainCrosscheck

    CaptainCrosscheck Registered User

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    I said sell, not trade redder. You can't count trades like McCollum for a conditional 7th, moves like that have nothing to do with buying or selling.

    Also by your logic the Celtics GM failed because he should have acquired someone to replace Kyrie in anticipation of him getting hurt.
     
  9. Shaman464

    Shaman464 #FireHolland

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    Holland gets an F for 2012-today. He gets an F for the off season. He gets a C for the season. He was average, which for him was good. And by average he was able to recognize and obvious situation and react to it. If he stood pat or god forbid bought at the deadline it would have been an F, but he sold, and that right there is why he shouldn't have an F. All that being said, the Wings and the fans deserve a better GM than GM on a good day is a C.
     
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  10. PelagicJoe

    PelagicJoe Registered User

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    Larkin and Zetterberg are the only people getting an A.

    I will give Ericsson a B because he actually exceeded my expectations this year.
    Other B's are Mantha, Lil Bert, Daley, Howard, AA, and Glendening. I will also give Abdelkader a B because he is one of the few on the team that plays with heart and works his butt off, even if his skill level isn't that of a Z or Larkin.
    Witkowski gets a B for playing his role as expected.

    C+ for Nyquist, Green, and Neilsen. Green would have gotten a B if he was better defensively. Offensively, I give him an A only in comparison to the rest of our blueline.
    Will Nyquist ever top his breakout season?
    C for Booth since he is serviceable as a 4th line guy. Nothing special, but not detrimental to the team either. Frk probably gets a C also.


    D - DDK, Helm, Kronwall.
    DeKeyser, like Nyquist, has regressed since his debut season on the team.
    Helm is overpaid for what he contributes.
    Kronwall is still one of our top 3 D, which is sad because he is pretty much toast at this point. I expect him to retire/LTIR at the end of next season.

    F - Blashill for sure. I was excited when he was named Babcock's successor, but now I think he kind of sucks as a coach, at least on this team.

    XO and Jensen are borderline Fs. XO prpbably gets a D. Jensen brings nothing to the table other than being right handed and being a decent skater. Other than that, I would be fine replacing him with one of the kids next year.

    Holland I will give a C. He is starting to realize the ship is sinking, so he made a few decent moves this year. Dumping Sheahan was one of my favorites, even if he should have traded him two years ago. Kenny absolutely took Vegas to the cleaners with the Tatar deal. I liked Mrazek while he was here, but dealing one of the goalies was obviously a necessity.
    I will give him a pass on not dealing Green. No one can foresee injuries, so that was just plain dumb bad luck.
    Hopefully he does some good wheeling and dealing during the draft and off season.
     
  11. Syckle78

    Syckle78 Registered User

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    I think the idea that the longer you wait the more you get is a fallacy. Especially for a pending ufa first pair defenseman. His value was at his peak in the off-season. Holland wasn't ready to sell then and lost out big time. Still he had a decent season and definitely doesn't deserve the F the op gave him.
     
  12. NEWing

    NEWing Registered User

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    Larkin A- He needs to address his PIM, too many stupid penalties.
    Daley C+ It is tough to play defense alone.

    Otherwise I would agree.
     
  13. kliq

    kliq Registered User

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    I don't think many people think of Green as a #1. If we are talking Karlsson, different story and you're likely right.
     
  14. KJoe88

    KJoe88 Registered User

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    I mean, he had a 30p spike. That’s enormous because he’s now going to start flirting with the 70P+ territory. And he’s not even in his prime yet.

    I’m really only going to focus on five. Four of which will be a huge part of our success a few years from now.

    Larkin - A-/+ : Whatever you give him it’s still an A. He had monster year when you think about it. We complained about how scored too much and didn’t set up as much. He changed that in a big way this year. This leads me to believe he’s becoming a complete player on his way to maybe finally becoming a 1c. If he doesn’t, this season has shown us he’s going to be an elite 2c. His goals will be up in the future while maintaining his ability to feed his wingers.

    Mantha - B : 24G is a nice season. He made some mistakes, but it’s all part of a learning process for scoring wingers. He scored in all different ways too. He learned to be diverse. If he can adjust to mitigate mistakes to some degree, he’s going to be a sweet scorer in a couple of years. Wouldn’t be shocked if he hits 30G next year. Going to be Mule 2.0 as long as he keeps at it. Not a bad one to have.

    Bertuzzi - B+ - I admit he’s a player I knew little about except for his name. He has some high offensive talent honestly. He was scrappy all season and got better as it went along. I expect him to be excited for next season and that alone will give him tons of confidence to grow.

    Zetterberg - B+ : continues to put up points even at his age. Very close to 1000P. Hopefully he has a couple more 50P seasons in him to reach it. Probably the lowest point in his entire career and still represented the C greatly. Continues to be a fantastic Wing despite his totals diminishing.

    Holland - B : I don’t give a **** what anyone thinks about this grade. He’s been ass in recent years, absolutely, but you know what... I’m going to give him another chance with his contract extension. I truly hope his vision of building the new foundation works. I also think he is trying to make things right, and I believe it shows with his recent moves. Some really good ones. While some may hate him, I’m going to put my trust in him one more time to see if he can accomplish this rebuild. This draft will be crucial.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  15. Shaman464

    Shaman464 #FireHolland

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    Z actually only needs 40 more points to hit 1,000.
     
  16. ricky0034

    ricky0034 Registered User

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    I think it's pretty clear that he had a great deal of bad luck in that regard for most of the year(something that seemed to be finally correcting itself towards the end of the year with all the goals he was scoring),I don't think its unreasonable to think he could have had an extra ~7 goals on the year and cracked 70 points(that's what he would have had with a 10% shooting percentage like he had his other two seasons in the NHL)

    it's ultimately semantics whether that's worthy of an A or A+ but I think the added context of the bounce-back from his disappointing sophomore year and laying to rest doubts about his long term future as a Center pushes it over the edge
     
  17. KJoe88

    KJoe88 Registered User

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    I actually thought he was around ~930P, not exactly at 960P.

    Thanks for that.
     
  18. WingsMJN2965

    WingsMJN2965 Registered User

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    I'm not a Holland fanboy, but this is the definition of Monday Morning QBing.
     
  19. Flowah

    Flowah Registered User

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    At some point, a lack of foresight becomes a problem. Yes, many decisions look bad only in hindsight. But if every decision you make ends up being a bad one then....?

    We have a GM because we expect some expertise in gauging the future. If he can't do that with trades for Legwand, Cole, signing Weiss, hanging onto an over 30 defenseman, then at what point can we start blaming the GM for that?
     
  20. njx9

    njx9 Registered User

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    Of course not, he was shooting nearly 20% the first year, and around 14% the second. No chance he'll hit either of those numbers when he's one of the only two goal scorers on the entire team.

    That said, and like I mentioned before, at least he's started shooting again. It gives me hope that his numbers will continue to improve.
     
  21. WingsMJN2965

    WingsMJN2965 Registered User

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    Larkin getting an A+ is fair. A 21 year old picked 15th overall who already looks like a top 5 player from that draft. That's fair.

    Realistically I started the season saying his ceiling was an elite #2C. By mid-season he was looking like a surefire elite #2C with the potential of a mediocre #1C. Now, he's looking like he could be a legit #1C. I've made the comparison before, he reminds me of Ryan O'Reilly, though he looks like he honestly could be better. Like a "Poor mans" Bergeron.
     
  22. Nut Upstrom

    Nut Upstrom Registered User

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    It's always Monday morning around here.
     
  23. Redder Winger

    Redder Winger Registered User

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    Except I was calling for it Friday and Saturday.
     
  24. WingsMJN2965

    WingsMJN2965 Registered User

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    Not sure if this is a bad attempt at humor or you're just completely oblivious to the term.
     
  25. PelagicJoe

    PelagicJoe Registered User

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    I agree that Gus is better as a shooter than a passer. Maybe we could pair him with a genuine playmaker. Not that Z isn't a good playmaker, but he is realistically on his last legs. That said, I think Nyquist is probably the one veteran guy that doesn't have a NTC or NMC that stays during the rebuild.
     
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