Prospect Info: 2015 18th overall - Thomas Chabot (D) Saint John Sea Dogs

[Micklebot]

Several reasons:

1) Where do the fit into the line up?
2) How much ice time will they get in the NHL vs AHL, sitting in the press box or riding pine is not great for development?
3) Past examples - Lazar; he could play in the NHL but was his growth stunted from not playing the minutes he could have played in the AHL?

I dont see how playing in the AHL could hurt their development however being rushed to the NHL can.

I never got this sentiment. I mean, why not just develop all players at the lowest possible level if playing a a lower level couldn't possible hurt their development?

Maybe the AHL would have been the best option developmentally for Lazar, and maybe it is for Chabot, but that doesn't mean it is for everybody.

I also find it interesting that everybody automatically assumes that a prospect would get big mins in every situation had they played in the AHL. Well, Puempel started in the bottom 6 in the AHL. Hoffman played on the third line with Pageau. The fact is even coaches in the AHL have a bias towards vets. Had Lazar played in the AHL, who's to say they didn't play him as a 3rd line grinder.

 

[usascout1]

I never got this sentiment. I mean, why not just develop all players at the lowest possible level if playing a a lower level couldn't possible hurt their development?

Maybe the AHL would have been the best option developmentally for Lazar, and maybe it is for Chabot, but that doesn't mean it is for everybody.

I also find it interesting that everybody automatically assumes that a prospect would get big mins in every situation had they played in the AHL. Well, Puempel started in the bottom 6 in the AHL. Hoffman played on the third line with Pageau. The fact is even coaches in the AHL have a bias towards vets. Had Lazar played in the AHL, who's to say they didn't play him as a 3rd line grinder.

Very true. Depending on the roster coaches are evaluated also on winning. Sometimes you don't win right away giving top minutes to young guys in the AHL. Many of the young guys having instant success in the AHL (not all but most) are also surrounded by top notch vets of the AHL.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

IMO Chabot and White will have an opportunity to win a roster spot in Ottawa. Effectively if they play well the spot will be theirs to start off with. If they start to struggle with confidence, or are not getting the playing time they will be sent down. That could be for a few games, a few weeks or longer depending on how they respond and how the big team is performing or how specific players are performing.

If they are out of place they should play AHL. If they are obviously able to contribute positively they should get the opportunity. All young players will make their share of mistakes , but if they are contributing and showing the ability to adjust ... they should stay..

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Very true. Depending on the roster coaches are evaluated also on winning. Sometimes you don't win right away giving top minutes to young guys in the AHL. Many of the young guys having instant success in the AHL (not all but most) are also surrounded by top notch vets of the AHL.

True. The onus is on the Sens to create a good development environment with their AHL team. The players have to be able to develop in all situations.

 

[Proust*]

My only issue with Chabot is that he relies too much on his skating at times and can run around erratically. If he can improve on the efficiencies of his movements, he will be a much better player in his own end. Morgan Reilly has this problem right now.

It's hard. When you know you can skate, you skate.

 

[Viletho]

IMO Chabot and White will have an opportunity to win a roster spot in Ottawa. Effectively if they play well the spot will be theirs to start off with. If they start to struggle with confidence, or are not getting the playing time they will be sent down. That could be for a few games, a few weeks or longer depending on how they respond and how the big team is performing or how specific players are performing.

If they are out of place they should play AHL. If they are obviously able to contribute positively they should get the opportunity. All young players will make their share of mistakes , but if they are contributing and showing the ability to adjust ... they should stay..

Very true. You have to give them a serious fighting chance to play in the NHL. That's what team do with their best prospects. If they are outplayed, it's easy to send them down.

A player who is rushed is a player who is not ready. If they are ready, then they aren't rushed player just because they are young.

 

[OD99]

I also find it interesting that everybody automatically assumes that a prospect would get big mins in every situation had they played in the AHL. Well, Puempel started in the bottom 6 in the AHL. Hoffman played on the third line with Pageau. The fact is even coaches in the AHL have a bias towards vets. Had Lazar played in the AHL, who's to say they didn't play him as a 3rd line grinder.

Perron was buried until just a few weeks ago.

There is no back and white in this at all. If the guys come in to camp and show they belong and will help the team they should stay up.

If they hit a wall or don't maintain their ability to be positive contributors they can be sent down for as long as the team deems necessary.

Blue chip prospects don't HAVE to play in AHL to develop and in fact many players perform and improve quicker when they have to play up to their competition.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I never got this sentiment. I mean, why not just develop all players at the lowest possible level if playing a a lower level couldn't possible hurt their development?

Maybe the AHL would have been the best option developmentally for Lazar, and maybe it is for Chabot, but that doesn't mean it is for everybody.

I also find it interesting that everybody automatically assumes that a prospect would get big mins in every situation had they played in the AHL. Well, Puempel started in the bottom 6 in the AHL. Hoffman played on the third line with Pageau. The fact is even coaches in the AHL have a bias towards vets. Had Lazar played in the AHL, who's to say they didn't play him as a 3rd line grinder.

If it's a choice between playing 4th line/3rd pairing minutes in the NHL, or 2nd line/top minutes in the AHL, the choice is pretty clear.

If we get really lucky one year and draft a McDavid, then we can bypass the AHL easily.

 

[vdB]

How about we all shutup and just let management figure it out??? They'll know if he's ready or not.

It's an exciting time in Ottawa. When's the last time we had 2 prospects like this? let's not argue, LETS GET HYPED

 

[Punchbowl]

How about we all shutup and just let management figure it out??? They'll know if he's ready or not.

It's an exciting time in Ottawa. When's the last time we had 2 prospects like this? let's not argue, LETS GET HYPED

Why do you keep telling everyone to quit discussing the team? This is a forum for discussion.

Personally, I don't mind reading the back-and-forth on NHL vs. AHL. It's a contentious point with evidence for either approach, and the debate makes you think. I personally have no idea regarding NHL/AHL for Chabot so reading alternate perspectives gives me some insight into a subject I personally am ambivalent about.

 

[vdB]

Why do you keep telling everyone to quit discussing the team? This is a forum for discussion.

Personally, I don't mind reading the back-and-forth on NHL vs. AHL. It's a contentious point with evidence for either approach, and the debate makes you think. I personally have no idea regarding NHL/AHL for Chabot so reading alternate perspectives gives me some insight into a subject I personally am ambivalent about.

Where else have I done this?

It's a dumb discussion, with no one adding anything of value. We all get the pros and cons of staying in the AHL and vice versa.

 

[zenator]

All this talk of AHL vs NHL reminds me of the Detroit model.

A few years ago, they had the best prospects in the NHL.

Detroit made a point of keeping prospects in the AHL a long time, until they are well done, as it is best for their development.

Smith, Eriksson, Sproule, Ouellette, Larkin, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco are the great players they are today BECAUSE of so much extra AHL time.

Wait a minute... Perhaps Detroit ruined these players by leaving them in the AHL so long. Maybe some of these guys would have turned out better if they were in the NHL sooner?

For Lazar, it probably didn't matter. If you don't have creativity, hockey sense, and wheel, you never will.

 

[BondraTime]

All this talk of AHL vs NHL reminds me of the Detroit model.

A few years ago, they had the best prospects in the NHL.

Detroit made a point of keeping prospects in the AHL a long time, until they are well done, as it is best for their development.

Smith, Eriksson, Sproule, Ouellette, Larkin, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco are the great players they are today BECAUSE of so much extra AHL time.

Wait a minute... Perhaps Detroit ruined these players by leaving them in the AHL so long. Maybe some of these guys would have turned out better if they were in the NHL sooner?

For Lazar, it probably didn't matter. If you don't have creativity, hockey sense, and wheel, you never will.

Larkin never played in the AHL, and Detroit is such a great team right now that their core is built around these homegrown talents!!

May/Likely have missed sarcasm, but the Detroit model was overblown and overrated because of their vets.

 

[BankStreetParade]

All this talk of AHL vs NHL reminds me of the Detroit model.

A few years ago, they had the best prospects in the NHL.

Detroit made a point of keeping prospects in the AHL a long time, until they are well done, as it is best for their development.

Smith, Eriksson, Sproule, Ouellette, Larkin, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco are the great players they are today BECAUSE of so much extra AHL time.

Wait a minute... Perhaps Detroit ruined these players by leaving them in the AHL so long. Maybe some of these guys would have turned out better if they were in the NHL sooner?

For Lazar, it probably didn't matter. If you don't have creativity, hockey sense, and wheel, you never will.

I don't now if you were being sarcastic, but:

Larkin never played in the AHL
Jurco played 113 games in the AHL and was traded for peanuts
Nyquist played 137 games in the AHL and has never produced as well as that break out second half of 13-14 season.
Oullet has played 183 games in the AHL and hasn't amounted to much yet.
And it's too early to tell on Sproul but it doesn't look like he's that great of a prospect.

 

[Real Smart Sens Fan]

Chabot and White should spend the entire year in the AHL if there's a lockout

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I don't now if you were being sarcastic, but:

Larkin never played in the AHL
Jurco played 113 games in the AHL and was traded for peanuts
Nyquist played 137 games in the AHL and has never produced as well as that break out second half of 13-14 season.
Oullet has played 183 games in the AHL and hasn't amounted to much yet.
And it's too early to tell on Sproul but it doesn't look like he's that great of a prospect.

Larkin played 6 playoff games for Grand Rapids after his 2014-15 U of Michagan season ended. I think that qualifies as playing in the AHL

 

[SAK11]

Different players need different things. Some need years in the AHL, others a handful of games. Time will tell. Let them show what they need before scheduling their next season for them.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

How about we all shutup and just let management figure it out??? They'll know if he's ready or not.

It's an exciting time in Ottawa. When's the last time we had 2 prospects like this? let's not argue, LETS GET HYPED

You start ... we will follow your lead

 

[JungleBeat]

How about we all shutup and just let management figure it out??? They'll know if he's ready or not.

No. This is a hockey forum and such topics are to be discussed.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

If it's a choice between playing 4th line/3rd pairing minutes in the NHL, or 2nd line/top minutes in the AHL, the choice is pretty clear.

If we get really lucky one year and draft a McDavid, then we can bypass the AHL easily.

10 minute 4th line vs the 3-5 we saw this year is a big difference as well.. A young player stepping in between players like Stalberg and Pyatt as an example have the support around them to really evaluate them and to allow them to grow. If I am that player. I desperately want the 10 minute NHL shifts on the 3rd or 4th line.

 

[Ice-Tray]

10 minute 4th line vs the 3-5 we saw this year is a big difference as well.. A young player stepping in between players like Stalberg and Pyatt as an example have the support around them to really evaluate them and to allow them to grow. If I am that player. I desperately want the 10 minute NHL shifts on the 3rd or 4th line.

Agreed, every line plays now, so if you start on the 4th line it's real minutes with NHL talent, not goon minutes with offensive black holes.

As an aside, damn is Pyatt ever shifty! Love watching him battle along the boards...

 

[DrEasy]

I never got this sentiment. I mean, why not just develop all players at the lowest possible level if playing a a lower level couldn't possible hurt their development?

I think the trick is to put the players in a position where there's a bit of a challenge, but not too much. Too much challenge and you end up either losing drive and motivation or you end up cheating or reverting to bad habits, not enough challenge and you get lazy or keep with what's working with no willingness to learn or change. It seems that an analogy with game level design in video games would be an apt one here.

When it became apparent that Lazar was not developing well in the NHL maybe it would have been worth sending him to an "easier" or more certainly less pressure-filled level to see how he fares and so he can work on his weaknesses.

In Chabot's case, and only in the limited viewing of his play in the WJC, I think he's relying on skills that might not translate directly to the NHL level, and so maybe after giving him a taste of the NHL again to show him what's *not* working for him, you send him down with homework to do in the AHL.

 

[SAK11]

I think the trick is to put the players in a position where there's a bit of a challenge, but not too much. Too much challenge and you end up either losing drive and motivation or you end up cheating or reverting to bad habits, not enough challenge and you get lazy or keep with what's working with no willingness to learn or change. It seems that an analogy with game level design in video games would be an apt one here.

When it became apparent that Lazar was not developing well in the NHL maybe it would have been worth sending him to an "easier" or more certainly less pressure-filled level to see how he fares and so he can work on his weaknesses.

In Chabot's case, and only in the limited viewing of his play in the WJC, I think he's relying on skills that might not translate directly to the NHL level, and so maybe after giving him a taste of the NHL again to show him what's *not* working for him, you send him down with homework to do in the AHL.

I actually thought they did that by sending him to the World Juniors. Then he came back from that and played 14 minutes/game in the playoffs. Then he made progress the next year. He wasn't as good as people wanted him to be, but he took more faceoffs, became a regular on the PK, scored [a few] more points, and went from 12th in TOI/game for Ottawa forwards to 9th. If he could've continued on this trajectory, he would've been a decent bottom 6 player for us, pretty much Pyatt. But then came the mono, and then a complete lack of confidence which wasn't helped by playing severely limited minutes with 2 terrible offensive players. Don't be mistaken, though, I saw what everyone saw- an underwhelming player, particularly given the hype/draft status. I'm just annoyed that everyone uses Lazar as the example of what can go wrong by rushing a player. Lazar just wasn't going to be a top 6 player for us. Chabot and White should be able to prove themselves without the shadow of Lazar casting doubt. They are their own players.

 

[DrEasy]

I actually thought they did that by sending him to the World Juniors. Then he came back from that and played 14 minutes/game in the playoffs. Then he made progress the next year. He wasn't as good as people wanted him to be, but he took more faceoffs, became a regular on the PK, scored [a few] more points, and went from 12th in TOI/game for Ottawa forwards to 9th. If he could've continued on this trajectory, he would've been a decent bottom 6 player for us, pretty much Pyatt. But then came the mono, and then a complete lack of confidence which wasn't helped by playing severely limited minutes with 2 terrible offensive players. Don't be mistaken, though, I saw what everyone saw- an underwhelming player, particularly given the hype/draft status. I'm just annoyed that everyone uses Lazar as the example of what can go wrong by rushing a player. Lazar just wasn't going to be a top 6 player for us. Chabot and White should be able to prove themselves without the shadow of Lazar casting doubt. They are their own players.

Sure, the beginning of the treatment looks good to me: sent to the WJC (and even there I didn't see what the hype was all about), given a chance with Hoff and Stone where he acquitted himself well, all that's fine. But I don't agree with what you characterize as "progress" the next year. I don't call going from 14 pts in 67 games to 18 points in 76 "progress". Sure, he managed not to embarrass himself, and he wasn't exactly paired with skilled players, but he did nothing to get us excited, unlike, say, Dzingel (admittedly a player with a very different skillset). Maybe at that point he is sent down, stays down a while till his body and confidence are ready to take on the challenge again?

Note that I wasn't advocating for an identical trajectory for all players, but rather the idea that you put players in a situation that provides an attainable challenge. For some this means going straight to the NHL, for some it means progressing methodically through the ranks, and for others it means yo-yo-ing till you prove you belong.

 

[Hutz]

IMO Chabot and White will have an opportunity to win a roster spot in Ottawa. Effectively if they play well the spot will be theirs to start off with. If they start to struggle with confidence, or are not getting the playing time they will be sent down. That could be for a few games, a few weeks or longer depending on how they respond and how the big team is performing or how specific players are performing.

If they are out of place they should play AHL. If they are obviously able to contribute positively they should get the opportunity. All young players will make their share of mistakes , but if they are contributing and showing the ability to adjust ... they should stay..

Yeah, they should certainly have to earn a spot, just like anyone else, but if they do, keep them in the NHL. I hope if there are areas that obviously need improvement before they can excel in the NHL (like I feel there may be with Chabot), though that we do the right thing and send them to Belleville with a plan to work on those aspects of the game.

May/Likely have missed sarcasm, but the Detroit model was overblown and overrated because of their vets.

I don't now if you were being sarcastic, but:

Definite sarcasm, my detector was beeping loudly! Yours must be almost out of battery power.