Prospect Info: 2014 World Junior Championship discussion | Pouliot (1G, 3A) | Sundqvist (2G, 1GWG)

Ragamuffin Gunner

Lost in the Flood
Aug 15, 2008
34,878
7,092
Boston
Outside of Bennett, this team really has shown zero interest in bringing in guys like that though.

Which is the complete wrong strategy when you have the two best centers in the world, IMO.

And I've mentioned in the other thread, Shero doesn't take risks on guys who aren't "Shero type" players. That goes for picks, trades and FA signings. Hell he had to have a 5th Dman replacement in the Neal/Gogo deal.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,579
21,121
Along with one this team desperately needs, and may be in the process of trading roster players to acquire (type of player, not specifically this one). It's always better to replace guys from within than having to risk trading for them. It's hard enough finding the right trading partner, but then you always have to question why a particular guy is up on the block to begin with as well.

All things being equal, yeah, you'd think you'd go for need.
 

MrBurghundy

I may be older but I'm never forgetting #47 & #41
Oct 5, 2009
26,456
3,563
I Love Scotch
All things being equal, yeah, you'd think you'd go for need.

I really don't want to knock picking defensemen too much, because it has worked out pretty well from an asset standpoint, if not actually making room for them on the roster. It's just that when you have so many defensemen that it's literally impossible for you to even play them all on the big club when they are ready, you'd think you'd try to prioritize forward depth a little more at the expense of BPA. Not saying reach for anybody, but at least try to restock the cupboard a bit for crying out loud.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,579
21,121
I really don't want to knock picking defensemen too much, because it has worked out pretty well from an asset standpoint, if not actually making room for them on the roster. It's just that when you have so many defensemen that it's literally impossible for you to even play them all on the big club when they are ready, you'd think you'd try to prioritize forward depth a little more at the expense of BPA. Not saying reach for anybody, but at least try to restock the cupboard a bit for crying out loud.

Yep. Curious to see how Shero arranges his pieces this spring and summer.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,750
46,770
In spite of his points, Mantha didn't really impress me.

Big and has a great nose for the net, but weak and doesn't battle for pucks. I'm not sure his game will translate well to the next level.

I think Mantha could turn into a "specialized" player, the kind of guy who might not do a whole lot all over the ice, but who you can plant in front of the net and be a net front presence and garbage goal scorer ala Johan Franzen or a poor man's Dave Andreychuk/Tim Kerr.

Speaking of which, I found it a little odd that Canada's set powerplay had Mantha playing Geno's role, on the right halfboards/right point, rather than right in front of the net. Most of his goals were scored in close anyway, and with his huge frame, why would you play him in a spot where his assets aren't best utilized?
 

Ragamuffin Gunner

Lost in the Flood
Aug 15, 2008
34,878
7,092
Boston
I'm sure we had our reasons why we didn't have Forsberg ranked BPA, and that's fine, you've gotta go with your internal rankings.

There's still a lot to be determined...these guys have barely begun their careers. But if Forsberg ends up being an impact winger, maybe we have to start re-evaluating how we determine our BPA if its costing the team to miss out on a player who was arguably the most highly-touted prospect available at the time.

In other words, the reasons for picking/not picking Forsberg might not have been weighted properly.

IMO passing on Trouba is the reason I don't think Shero was interested in BPA, he just wanted the guy he fell in love with watching Morrow.

If you looked at the available players available at that pick keeping in mind Shero's ideal type of player, he takes Trouba 100 times out of 100. I honestly think that if DP wasn't Morrow's partner in JR Trouba would be a Pittsburgh Penguin.


We all know I wanted FF, but I would have understood picking Trouba and been very happy with it with how well he's played this year.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

ti kallisti
May 31, 2004
34,342
28,362
^

Agreed.

I can't help but think that the team fell for DP a little too hard after watching him so much. Pouliot is well-regarded enough that it should work out... but I truly do feel like that pick was a little lazy.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,579
21,121
I think Mantha could turn into a "specialized" player, the kind of guy who might not do a whole lot all over the ice, but who you can plant in front of the net and be a net front presence and garbage goal scorer ala Johan Franzen or a poor man's Dave Andreychuk/Tim Kerr.

Speaking of which, I found it a little odd that Canada's set powerplay had Mantha playing Geno's role, on the right halfboards/right point, rather than right in front of the net. Most of his goals were scored in close anyway, and with his huge frame, why would you play him in a spot where his assets aren't best utilized?

Mantha's too feeble with too little battle in him to play the front of the net. He'd get thrown around down there...Lazar was ideal for that spot.

I'm not sure what sort of player Mantha could turn out to be. I've heard Eric Daze as a comparable. As for current NHLers, I don't know...maybe an offense-only Jeff Carter.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,750
46,770
Mantha's too feeble with too little battle in him to play the front of the net. He'd get thrown around down there...Lazar was ideal for that spot.

I'm not sure what sort of player Mantha could turn out to be. I've heard Eric Daze as a comparable. As for current NHLers, I don't know...maybe an offense-only Jeff Carter.

I don't know ... the times he actually was near the crease, the opposition defense had a tough time handling him. Hence why he scored the number of goals he did in close.

As for a comparable, I'm not sure I see Jeff Carter. Carter was/is a much better skater (acceleration), and his shot is a lot more dangerous from far out. That's why I likened Mantha to a net front guy, because he seemed to have success due more to quick hands than an actual lethal shot from outside 30 feet.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,579
21,121
^

Agreed.

I can't help but think that the team fell for DP a little too hard after watching him so much. Pouliot is well-regarded enough that it should work out... but I truly do feel like that pick was a little lazy.

The Pens seem to have certain programs they like dipping in to.

London. Portland. Saint John. Boston College. Nebraska-Omaha.

Could just be a coincidence, but it seems like once we've seen a player we like somewhere, there's a good chance he won't be the only one we take a long look at.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,579
21,121
I don't know ... the times he actually was near the crease, the opposition defense had a tough time handling him. Hence why he scored the number of goals he did in close.

As for a comparable, I'm not sure I see Jeff Carter. Carter was/is a much better skater (acceleration), and his shot is a lot more dangerous from far out. That's why I likened Mantha to a net front guy, because he seemed to have success due more to quick hands than an actual lethal shot from outside 30 feet.

He did get a lot of goals from that area, I just can't see him taking a pounding regularly. Seems like he's better when people forget about him then he swoops in.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,750
46,770
The Pens seem to have certain programs they like dipping in to.

London. Portland. Saint John. Boston College. Nebraska-Omaha.

Could just be a coincidence, but it seems like once we've seen a player we like somewhere, there's a good chance he won't be the only one we take a long look at.

That's bad news for us, then. Matt Dumba was traded to Portland. So there's a good chance the Pens will try to acquire him now. :sarcasm:
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

ti kallisti
May 31, 2004
34,342
28,362
The Pens seem to have certain programs they like dipping in to.

London. Portland. Saint John. Boston College. Nebraska-Omaha.

Could just be a coincidence, but it seems like once we've seen a player we like somewhere, there's a good chance he won't be the only one we take a long look at.

Indeed. And I understand that and why it can be used to the team's advantage. But there's a lot of things I don't like about it, either.

The scouting staff is expected to go out there and get the team players. Wherever they might be. Not hang around the same three or four programs all year.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,579
21,121
That's bad news for us, then. Matt Dumba was traded to Portland. So there's a good chance the Pens will try to acquire him now. :sarcasm:

26-No-Darth_Vader.jpg


Indeed. And I understand that and why it can be used to the team's advantage. But there's a lot of things I don't like about it, either.

The scouting staff is expected to go out there and get the team players. Wherever they might be. Not hang around the same three or four programs all year.

Didn't mean to imply that was necessarily a good thing, even if it has worked out pretty well for us most times haha.
 

Crafton

Liver-Eating Johnson
May 6, 2010
9,842
110
San Francisco
i don't necessarily believe that their strategy is to scout the same programs over and over. i'll grant that there are many instances of prospects having played with each other on the same team or coming from the same program from different time-frames, but some of that could be based on how highly regarded (some of) those programs are.

i will admit that i think it's likely that they look to 'spheres' hockey activity - meaning that i'm more willing to believe that what links Archibald and Guentzel is that they are Minnesota high school products (like Goligoskdfajsdf, Sneep, Blueger (depending on your view of SSM) as opposed to being UNO products. perhaps, a more nuanced take, but certainly a less disconcerting one.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,579
21,121
i will admit that i think it's likely that they look to 'spheres' hockey activity - meaning that i'm more willing to believe that what links Archibald and Guentzel is that they are Minnesota high school products (like Goligoskdfajsdf, Sneep, Blueger (depending on your view of SSM) as opposed to being UNO products. perhaps, a more nuanced take, but certainly a less disconcerting one.

They like their Minnesota products, but that would really only account for a small part of their inclinations. We seem, at least, to have a habit of watching one team because we're interested in one player and get fixated on another (or two) in the process.

That's not necessarily what happens, but I can't imagine many other teams have so many instances of this happening. I haven't checked though, because I'm lazy like that and I like this conspiracy theory.
 

MrBurghundy

I may be older but I'm never forgetting #47 & #41
Oct 5, 2009
26,456
3,563
I Love Scotch
They like their Minnesota products, but that would really only account for a small part of their inclinations. We seem, at least, to have a habit of watching one team because we're interested in one player and get fixated on another (or two) in the process.

That's not necessarily what happens, but I can't imagine many other teams have so many instances of this happening. I haven't checked though, because I'm lazy like that and I like this conspiracy theory.

:laugh:

Me too.
 

Crafton

Liver-Eating Johnson
May 6, 2010
9,842
110
San Francisco
We seem, at least, to have a habit of watching one team because we're interested in one player and get fixated on another (or two) in the process.

That's not necessarily what happens, but I can't imagine many other teams have so many instances of this happening. I haven't checked though, because I'm lazy like that and I like this conspiracy theory.

i'm perfectly willing to admit that it could be the case that they get fixated while watching teammates - my only point is that i'm inclined to believe that the pool they chose to restrict themselves to is larger than a few 'feeder' teams/schools. as in all (most/some/a level that is competitively acceptable in comparison to their peers?) Minnesota high school players of note are on their radar as opposed to only the ones that have committed to UNO or went to Brainerd High School. basically i'm willing to believe that they would've picked DP if he had been playing for the Kootenay Ice but that could be wishful thinking on my part. either way, i'm not going to slit my wrists over it (not that i'm implying that you are...)
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,579
21,121
i'm perfectly willing to admit that it could be the case that they get fixated while watching teammates - my only point is that i'm inclined to believe that the pool they chose to restrict themselves to is larger than a few 'feeder' teams/schools. as in all (most/some/a level that is competitively acceptable in comparison to their peers?) Minnesota high school players of note are on their radar as opposed to only the ones that have committed to UNO or went to Brainerd High School. basically i'm willing to believe that they would've picked DP if he had been playing for the Kootenay Ice but that could be wishful thinking on my part. either way, i'm not going to slit my wrists over it (not that i'm implying that you are...)

Yeah, I just get the impression that when some of these scouts are familiar with a guy and he's in their draft tier, they opt for the one they know best. Sort of like if you were looking to fill a position and all the applicants were similarly skilled, but one was a high school bud. A whiff o' nepotism.
 

Crafton

Liver-Eating Johnson
May 6, 2010
9,842
110
San Francisco
Yeah, I just get the impression that when some of these scouts are familiar with a guy and he's in their draft tier, they opt for the one they know best. Sort of like if you were looking to fill a position and all the applicants were similarly skilled, but one was a high school bud. A whiff o' nepotism.

it is an organization that seems to place a great deal of emphasis on 'family'. surely, you expected a whiff o' nepotism ;)

the team did draft Andy Bathgate's grandkid...
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,579
21,121
it is an organization that seems to place a great deal of emphasis on 'family'. surely, you expected a whiff o' nepotism ;)

the team did draft Andy Bathgate's grandkid...

I wish Paul Reinhart had played for the Pens.

Bah, we'd probably have ended up with Max.
 

jmelm

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Feb 27, 2002
13,412
3,822
Toronto, Canada
I'm almost positive that Pouliot will be a full time NHLer on the bottom pair with Scuderi next year. Pens love how he has developed, and he nearly made the team this year. He'll make it, especially if Maatta-Letang stays together (so Scuderi gets pushed down)


This will never happen, because this would necessitate "sitting", trading or waiving Despres and/or Bortuzzo, in addition to Samuelsson. Next year, Scuderi will play with Letang, Maatta (or Despres) will play with Martin, and Despres (or Maatta) will play with Bortuzzo. That will be our top 6 unless we re-sign Niskanen or Orpik, and/or there are trades made, any of which are possible.

And I very much agree with the notion that Pouliot needs some seasoning in the minors. This is not only because of our system (needed) and to refine his defensive game (needed), but also, and perhaps most importantly, to improve his overall hockey strength, skating and other factors that will allow him to not only compete, but excel, against bigger/older/stronger/faster professional mens' hockey players.

If Pouliot played on a weak team in the WHL, was bounced in the first round or didn't qualify for the playoffs, then perhaps he would have a chance at a protracted off-season in which he would have a few extra months to work solely on his conditioning. (like Seguin had vs. Hall in their draft years). But the fact that DP plays on a strong team that may make another deep playoff or Memorial Cup run may mean he'll have less time to physically mature and work on building his strength. How quickly he is able to add this strength, speed/explosiveness, and get used to playing & excelling against pros will determine how quickly he makes the big team. It could be 1 year in the AHL, or it could be 3 years in the AHL.

Or, for all we know, he could be the D prospect of ours who gets traded before then for a good young forward. It all depends what happens with some of our UFA vets and other prospects, so there are a lot of moving parts here. But with our depth on D and already having a lot of young guys on our team, I highly, highly doubt he makes our big club this year. I think the idea that he "almost made the team" this year has been overblown.
 

jmelm

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Feb 27, 2002
13,412
3,822
Toronto, Canada
I felt like sleeping in on Sunday, so I PVR'd the game and knew the score before I watched it. So instead of just watching the game and see who would win, I pretty much exclusively watched DP's every move. This is what I noticed:

- firstly, as much as I'm an optimist and want to have faith that the Pens scouting staff made the right pick, I have silently shared, to a degree anyway, the attitude that Mr. Burgundy has that "I hope we're proven wrong" and that DP ends up being sensational. I know it's too early to know what the outcome will be, but I'm just mentioning my uncertainty about the pick to show that I don't have any bias against this player...

- DP actually played his best game of the tournament today. Jacob was correct in DP's play today in the sense that he sometimes barely left the ice, and there's no question he was rationing his energy during his shifts. As I'm writing this, I've got the TSN post-game show in the background. Bob McKenzie just said he thought DP was one of the 3 best bright spots of the team, and also that he was probably spread a bit too thin with too much ice time. Nonetheless, DP both impressed at this tournament, and was also relied upon a bit too heavily. This is in part both a great thing for DP in terms of experience and the confidence shown in him, and maybe a bad thing if wore him out a bit too much. Also, this is in part a great thing because it shows that DP was amongst the cream of this year's defensive crop, and OTOH it may show that the field this year was not particularly strong, IMO.

Nonetheless, I'll expand on the positives and negatives of DPs performance:

- He definitely showed that when the game is on the line and he or the team is thrust into a more important position, he seems to both elevate his intensity, but at the same time really keeps his cool. He was fantastic today in terms of all the simple defensive plays: reversing the puck, moving it up the ice himself when warranted, jumping into the play when warranted, etc. There were games earlier in this tournament when I would have considered him a bit more of a high-risk player because he would jump in without necessarily having support or try to do too much like beating guys 1 on 3 or 4. But today, he played an almost mistake-free game. I don't believe he had any turnovers and was constantly pushing the pace and creating chances, and he never panicked or forced a play that wasn't there. I believe this is why he got SO, SO much icetime.

- DP was very, very cognisant of staying back. If Ekblad or whoever had moved up, or as the lone Dman on the PP, he would always fall back. Today, there was a 2-on-1 against Canada with DP being the lone Dman. He played it in a way that would make Harrington or Maatta proud. He went down to the ice on one knee with his skate blocking the passing lane behind him, and his stick flat on the ice blocking the lane in front of him. He was leaning slightly more towards the player with the puck, and absolutely neutralized this play. (I either don't recall them getting a shot off on this play, or it was at an extreme angle that was no threat). It was great to see this from DP, especially under the circumstances of how much TOI he was getting and the score in the game.

- As the 3rd period came to a close, it was as if DP was taking it upon himself to make something happen. He was credited with 6 shots on goal tonight, and the majority came in the 3rd. DP does not force a shot when he doesn't have a lane and at no point were any of his shots blocked near the blueline in this or other games that would lead to a rush against. But Russia did a great job of boxing out guys in front of the net, blocking pucks just before they got through, and clearing out rebounds. If DP doesn't have a shot, he will make the pass to someone who does, or fake to get into a better position, and/or be ready to get it right back for a shot. He did, however, miss the net a bunch of times on the shots. He probably had at least 5 or 6 additional shot on goal attempts this game, so while it is great to see him have a shooter's mentality, we would like to see him get more of those shots on the net with better accuracy, and perhaps with greater velocity and/or looking for team mates' sticks. So there are some holes here, but overall very positive.

- DP is extremely smart and aware positionally in his own end. He's always looking behind him and has his head up, trying to be aware of where the opponents are on the ice, and trying to get between them and the goal to take away lanes or sticks. This is also positive because it shows a very high level of vision, awareness and hockey IQ (as do the other positives I mentioned above, or below), which are things you can't teach. This is why DP is trusted on the PK, and why he's out there to protect leads, etc.

- DP has excellent gap against forwards. I do, however, think he will get burned against some of the faster forwards in the pros, unless he continues to improve his speed (TBD) and reads against them (which he has the hockey sense to do). He is VERY good with his stick and made a great play to block a shot by putting his feet together, almost in that 10 and 2 position, as he saw the player taking that shot, and preventing it from going through. Because he doesn't have particularly good size or reach, he needs to learn when to use his stick and when to use his body. More often then not in this tourney he was very rarely beat 1 on 1, but there were a couple of times in this tourney when he played the puck instead of the body. He needs to learn when to use his stick and when to put his hands or chest into the forwards logo and play the body to break up the rush. His gap control and skating allow him, positionally, to do this, but he needs to gain that strength and physicality to do that. I know he has it in him, but this is where he'll need some seasoning and development (and strength).

- All in all, I think this tourney will be be both a strong confidence booster for DP (because of how well he played and how much he was trusted by the coaching staff); and the bitterness of losing should be a significant motiving factor for Pouliot to want to excel in other instances going forward. In other words, it should light even more of that fire under his ass which causes him to play better, and it's great to know that his composure is there (or perhaps actually improves) when the stakes are higher.

- The other positive thing about this tourney and DP's performance is that this definitely has re-enforced and/or increased his "value" as a prospect or an asset. Yes: if you ask me today, I would still probably trade him 1 for 1 for FF, or perhaps TT or Tom Wilson, and we know how Trouba and Hertl have progressed. But that's all hypothetical. We may not have gotten the BEST player at our position, but at long as we got a damn good one, that's what's really important. And for all we know, DP could be the guy who gets traded for a top forward who's as good or better than some of those other guys, or makes another one of our Dmen expendable for the same purpose. Too early to tell and it's still hypothetical, but DP definitely raised his stock and value in this tournament.

Today was his best and most complete game of the tournament. It was great to see him perform this way under these circumstances. It would be great to see him both improve further on this, and to be able to "bring it" like this every night. This is what becoming a pro is all about. Judging by the way he performed and the determination and intensity he showed when things got more serious and the stakes were higher, I do believe this kid has what it takes to work hard to become a good player and improve in the areas that we will put him in, particularly under the tutelage of John Hynes and whatever else developmental guys like Guerin, Fitzgerald and others want to see from this player. So like Mr. Burgundy says, in another way: I hope we're proven that we made the right pick; although I do have to admit I am more optimistic about that possibility than I was one week ago.


(sorry for the long post. I imagine some who can't see the games may appreciate the report)
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad