2003 draft revisted: Bergeron STILL top 5 pick

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I wasn't making an argument, i was stating that i highly doubt Bergeron was as bad as Horton at the beginning. This highlights a point you have already made about their consistency,

I know Horton lacks consistency and that is why i have said Bergeron is the better player as of now. When Horton learns to be more consistent and learns to shoot more (He has an awesome shot) he'll be dominant. Horton is a RW so the faceoff comparison is pointless. Horton has played on the RW since he made the Panthers at 18. He isn't a center anymore. Horton is never gonna be a great defensively player, but then Bergeron is never going to be a powerfoward.

As for Dustin Brown, i'd take Horton over him without even thinking. Horton is my far the more talented of the two. Brown is a good player and he hits more but he won't produce like Horton will IMO.

Very well said.

As for the Brown thing...I've been a massive Dustin Brown fan for a long, long time. He's an Upstate boy, and I've always loved his style of play. But Horton is definitely better than Brown is.

For what it's worth, Brown and Horton are actually two of my favorite players in the league right now...

I still remark about how scary good the '03 draft is. You can't make a top 5 list without leaving a bunch of great players out.

Absolutely. Just incredible.
 

J17 Vs Proclamation

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Very well said.

As for the Brown thing...I've been a massive Dustin Brown fan for a long, long time. He's an Upstate boy, and I've always loved his style of play. But Horton is definitely better than Brown is.

For what it's worth, Brown and Horton are actually two of my favorite players in the league right now...



Absolutely. Just incredible.

As you can tell, Horton is one of my favourite players ;).

I do like Brown, i just don't feel his offense matches up to some of the other guys in this draft.

Weber, Bergeron, O'sullivan, Carle etc in the 2nd round is just insane. I don't think you'll see a draft as good as this for a long time. I actually hate the 2003 draft. Sure, we got Horton and he'll be amazing but considering we had 4 picks in the first two rounds we did terrible. Stewart, Meyer and Kreps make me wanna kill Mike Keenan some more considering who else was picked in that vicinity.

I have to say i still think Mike Richards is the most overrated player in this draft.
 

Boston

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Horton uses his size in a slighty different way to Bergeron!

If you are trying to say Horton is much more physical than Begeron, you are wrong. They are about even. Don't get me wrong, I love Horton, but it is tough to take him ahead of Bergeron right now, as you said. If they reach their full potential maybe we'll get lucky enough to see Bergeron develop into a Ron Francias type of player and Horton into a Brendan Shanahan type.
 

Bruins4Lifer

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I don't see how people are drafting Staal and Bergeron in the same slot at this point.. Staal has been better than Bergeron in their breif careers.. Staal = 100 pt season already, and led the playoffs in scoring last year..

1. Staal
2. Phaneuf
3. Fleury
4. Vanek
5. Bergeron

Not Bergeron's fault he wasn't able to play on a good quality team last year that made the playoffs. Bergeron also has 7 more points than Staal in 4 less games this year. As I posted earlier in the thread, their ppg rate over their careers is equal so I don't see why a person can't draft them in the same slot.
 

littleguybigstik

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phaneuf
staal
vanek
horton
bergeron
fleury
vanek

are you trying to say that vanek should be in top 6 :) seeing as you have him twice.
still dont see why bergeron is so highly touted. to me his ceiling isnt as high as everyone else on that list. good ppg guy but not 100pt season worthy. getzlaf isnt getting much love on these lists either.
 

BobbyClarkeFan16

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I'd agree that Bergeron is top 5. I'd take it a step further and say he's a top 2 guy from that draft, only behind Staal, but even then it's close between the two of them.

My top five from the 2003 draft would like this:

1. Staal
2. Bergeron
3. Phaneuf
4. Vanek
5. Bernier - that's right, Steve Bernier

I think those five have been head and shoulders of that class. However, I'm also going to say that in the next two to three years, the rest of the first round picks from that year will be right up there with them. All the first round picks that year were really, really, really good choices.
 

Newfie Bruin

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are you trying to say that vanek should be in top 6 :) seeing as you have him twice.
still dont see why bergeron is so highly touted. to me his ceiling isnt as high as everyone else on that list. good ppg guy but not 100pt season worthy.

Bergeron is 21 years old playing on the second line with two underachievers in sturm and boyes this year. He is on pace for 88 points. He hits, he works hard, and put up alot of ponits. Thats why he's highly touted.
 

Vagrant

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The points per game statistic between Eric Staal and Patrice Bergeron is very misleading. Bergeron has a career high of 31 goals and 73 points. Eric Staal has a career high of 45 goals and 100 points. Not to mention a post season where he scored 28 points in 25 games and won the Stanley Cup.

Not to mention the fact that Staal has been pretty terrible this year to this point. Eric Staal showed last year that he has elite level upside of being able to lead a team and score big time goals in the playoffs as well as hit triple digits in the regular season. These are two things that Bergeron has yet to prove.

If you scratch the "old NHL numbers", in which Staal scored 31 points in 82 games and Bergeron scored 39 points in 71 games and just take "new NHL numbers" into account then we're looking at these numbers with playoffs included:

Patrice Bergeron:

Games: 123
Goals: 46
Assists: 72
Points: 118
PPG: 0.959


Eric Staal:

Games: 154
Goals: 73
Assists: 94
Points: 167
PPG: 1.084


That's even with Staal's terrible season to this point taken into account. I suspect a rebound for him in the 2nd half of the season.
 

Vagrant

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But with the data you just listed their PPG's are virtually identical...

1. Staal has played more games. Scored FAR more goals and is over the point per game line. Bergeron has played less games and is under the mark still.

2. The idea of showing the PPG's were to show that they weren't "dead even", as the poster above mentioned.

3. When evaluating the value of a player currently, you can't use PPG as a viable means to measure them when they're below 25 years old. The reason for this is that it negates the fact that it takes some players longer to mature into elite players than it does for others. Bergeron came into the league as a more complete player. He was matured past his years in terms of growing into his body. Now that Staal has grown into his body, he's a more dangerous player than Bergeron. This year to this point has been a write off for him and with a strong second half of the season, he can get back to the point per game pace. It's very possible that Bergeron will have as good of a season as Staal has had this year when evaluated at the end of the year, but it wasn't even close last year.

4. At this point, we're not sure what we're going to get out of either player in terms of the future past this year. We have not very much to base it on. However, from what we have we know that Eric Staal has the ability to be a player that not only scores more than a point per game, he can score into triple digits. He also lead the entire NHL in playoff scoring. The fact that he has done these things proves his potential value if and when he's able to revert to that form. I think Staal is a victim of post breakout complacency paired with a Stanley Cup win. It's not that uncommon in young players who experience as much success as early as Staal has. For the most part, Bergeron has been a bright spot on a stinker, not a star on a contender. He doesn't have motivation problems to this point because he hasn't accomplished the ultimate goal. I'm not saying he's a bad player, but it makes more sense that he's putting up better numbers than Staal this year when Staal pretty much accomplished last season what some players never accomplish in a career.
 

dafoomie

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Its hard to say that Staal and Vanek are on another level than Bergeron when he's matched or outproduced them both this year, in less games. Not that he's necessarily better than they are, but I'd put him on the same level as them, top 4 in that draft class for sure.
 

Kosikarzzz

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I don't see how people are drafting Staal and Bergeron in the same slot at this point.. Staal has been better than Bergeron in their breif careers.. Staal = 100 pt season already, and led the playoffs in scoring last year..

1. Staal
2. Phaneuf
3. Fleury
4. Vanek
5. Bergeron

Staal had a better team...which is obvious because they won the cup. No disrepect to the guy. I still don't know who I would take first between Staal & Bergeron. Phaneuf would be my first choice.
 

littleguybigstik

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1. Staal has played more games. Scored FAR more goals and is over the point per game line. Bergeron has played less games and is under the mark still.

2. The idea of showing the PPG's were to show that they weren't "dead even", as the poster above mentioned.

3. When evaluating the value of a player currently, you can't use PPG as a viable means to measure them when they're below 25 years old. The reason for this is that it negates the fact that it takes some players longer to mature into elite players than it does for others. Bergeron came into the league as a more complete player. He was matured past his years in terms of growing into his body. Now that Staal has grown into his body, he's a more dangerous player than Bergeron. This year to this point has been a write off for him and with a strong second half of the season, he can get back to the point per game pace. It's very possible that Bergeron will have as good of a season as Staal has had this year when evaluated at the end of the year, but it wasn't even close last year.

4. At this point, we're not sure what we're going to get out of either player in terms of the future past this year. We have not very much to base it on. However, from what we have we know that Eric Staal has the ability to be a player that not only scores more than a point per game, he can score into triple digits. He also lead the entire NHL in playoff scoring. The fact that he has done these things proves his potential value if and when he's able to revert to that form. I think Staal is a victim of post breakout complacency paired with a Stanley Cup win. It's not that uncommon in young players who experience as much success as early as Staal has. For the most part, Bergeron has been a bright spot on a stinker, not a star on a contender. He doesn't have motivation problems to this point because he hasn't accomplished the ultimate goal. I'm not saying he's a bad player, but it makes more sense that he's putting up better numbers than Staal this year when Staal pretty much accomplished last season what some players never accomplish in a career.

i agree with these statements. To add a good player on a weak team gets more pp time and toi period. staal has lots of competetion for ice time, stillman, whitney, williams, brindy, walker and cole. staal gets 59% of his points with no advantage while bergeron is about 50% of his pts with the man advantage.

To add... vanek got most of his pts on the third line in buffalo. so we are just getting a glimpse of what he can do with second line minutes, wait till next yr when buff cant sign both drury and briere, vanek will be 100pt player.
then we will be comparing the draft to vanek.
 

Vagrant

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Staal had a better team...which is obvious because they won the cup. No disrepect to the guy. I still don't know who I would take first between Staal & Bergeron. Phaneuf would be my first choice.

I wouldn't take Phaneuf ahead of Bergeron. I know many here may flame that sentiment, but Phaneuf right now today isn't as good of a defenseman as people give him credit for. He's GREAT, don't get me wrong, but he's not a total vaccum in his own end like people would like to give him credit for. He does two things that endears him, and subsequently causes him to be highly regarded, by fans. He hits really hard and often for one. He scores, for two. Now those are great things to have, but the primary job of a defenseman is to prevent the other team from scoring. In the system that Calgary plays in, it makes him look a little more adept at this aspect of the game than I think he is.

Staal and Bergeron both at this point are impact forwards good for a point per game. Those aren't easy to come by, either.
 

someguy44

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Phaneuf is good, but man does he ever get overrated here. Staal to me was clearly the best player out of that draft (up to this point anyway). I mean, the guy's only won a Stanley Cup and already has a hundred point season and that was done in his sophmore year.

This is how I rank them up till this point anyway...

1. Staal
2. Phaneuf
3. Bergeron
4. Vanek

The rest I'm not too sure. This will likely change in the future with guys like Perry, Getzlaf, Horton, Fleury, etc... But man, what a deep draft.
 

dafoomie

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i agree with these statements. To add a good player on a weak team gets more pp time and toi period. staal has lots of competetion for ice time, stillman, whitney, williams, brindy, walker and cole. staal gets 59% of his points with no advantage while bergeron is about 50% of his pts with the man advantage.

To add... vanek got most of his pts on the third line in buffalo. so we are just getting a glimpse of what he can do with second line minutes, wait till next yr when buff cant sign both drury and briere, vanek will be 100pt player.
then we will be comparing the draft to vanek.
The difference in total ice time last year between Staal and Bergeron is 57 seconds.

Eric Staal had MORE powerplay icetime per game last year, 5:30 per game vs Bergeron's 4:42. Staal's even strength icetime per game was only 5 seconds less than Bergeron's, 13:28 vs 13:23. The real difference in icetime here comes from penalty killing, Bergeron PK icetime per game last year was 2:25, compared to Staal's :45.

This pattern holds true for this year, as well. Bergeron's icetime per game is :48 more, but Bergeron's even strength and PP icetime are both less than Staal's, by :55 and :46 respectively. But, Bergeron spends 2:53 per game on the PK, compared to Staal's :20 this year.

Last year, Staal had 40 PP points out of 100, 40%.

This argument simply does not hold water. If anything, having more skilled players around you would only serve to increase your production. Not that I'm arguing that Bergeron is better, but they're in the same class.
 
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Bruins4Lifer

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1. Staal has played more games. Scored FAR more goals and is over the point per game line. Bergeron has played less games and is under the mark still.

2. The idea of showing the PPG's were to show that they weren't "dead even", as the poster above mentioned.

3. When evaluating the value of a player currently, you can't use PPG as a viable means to measure them when they're below 25 years old. The reason for this is that it negates the fact that it takes some players longer to mature into elite players than it does for others. Bergeron came into the league as a more complete player. He was matured past his years in terms of growing into his body. Now that Staal has grown into his body, he's a more dangerous player than Bergeron. This year to this point has been a write off for him and with a strong second half of the season, he can get back to the point per game pace. It's very possible that Bergeron will have as good of a season as Staal has had this year when evaluated at the end of the year, but it wasn't even close last year.

4. At this point, we're not sure what we're going to get out of either player in terms of the future past this year. We have not very much to base it on. However, from what we have we know that Eric Staal has the ability to be a player that not only scores more than a point per game, he can score into triple digits. He also lead the entire NHL in playoff scoring. The fact that he has done these things proves his potential value if and when he's able to revert to that form. I think Staal is a victim of post breakout complacency paired with a Stanley Cup win. It's not that uncommon in young players who experience as much success as early as Staal has. For the most part, Bergeron has been a bright spot on a stinker, not a star on a contender. He doesn't have motivation problems to this point because he hasn't accomplished the ultimate goal. I'm not saying he's a bad player, but it makes more sense that he's putting up better numbers than Staal this year when Staal pretty much accomplished last season what some players never accomplish in a career.

Like I said before, you can't fault Bergeron for playing on a far weaker team last year where Staal played on a very good team that ended up winning the cup. I thought it was obvious I dismissed the playoff stats in fairness to Bergeron because he hasn't been in that position. Without playoff games considered, their ppg clips are "dead even" so don't say they aren't. And I don't understand how you can term them "misleading" even including playoffs, they are still very close to make very little difference.

Caniacforever said:
Not to mention the fact that Staal has been pretty terrible this year to this point. Eric Staal showed last year that he has elite level upside of being able to lead a team and score big time goals in the playoffs as well as hit triple digits in the regular season. These are two things that Bergeron has yet to prove.
Who's to blame for Staal having a bad start to the season? About being able to lead a team and score big time goals in the playoffs...Last year Bergeron pretty much carried the team offensively as he had no 2nd line to help him out and faced oppositions best checking lines every game. Whether he can do it in the playoffs or not has yet to be seen as he hasn't had an opportunity yet. He does wear an "A" and has shown that he is a very capable leader.
 

Randall Graves*

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Well, Zherdev is an elite talent who is just a bit of a headcase right now. He could very well end up being THE BEST offensive player down the road. I wouldn't say me putting him at #5 is overrating the guy.
A russian headcase, there's something you don't see everyday :sarcasm:

People putting Bergeron on par with Eric Staal..come on, the kid scored 100 points and led the playoffs in scoring he's having a cup hangover, it happens his body likely has never experianced that kind of pain, I bet by either the 2nd half of this year or next season he explodes again.
 

monster_bertuzzi

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The points per game statistic between Eric Staal and Patrice Bergeron is very misleading. Bergeron has a career high of 31 goals and 73 points. Eric Staal has a career high of 45 goals and 100 points. Not to mention a post season where he scored 28 points in 25 games and won the Stanley Cup.

Not to mention the fact that Staal has been pretty terrible this year to this point. Eric Staal showed last year that he has elite level upside of being able to lead a team and score big time goals in the playoffs as well as hit triple digits in the regular season. These are two things that Bergeron has yet to prove.

If you scratch the "old NHL numbers", in which Staal scored 31 points in 82 games and Bergeron scored 39 points in 71 games and just take "new NHL numbers" into account then we're looking at these numbers with playoffs included:

Patrice Bergeron:

Games: 123
Goals: 46
Assists: 72
Points: 118
PPG: 0.959


Eric Staal:

Games: 154
Goals: 73
Assists: 94
Points: 167
PPG: 1.084


That's even with Staal's terrible season to this point taken into account. I suspect a rebound for him in the 2nd half of the season.


Nobody is argueing Bergeron is better than Staal except for hard-core Bruins fans.
 

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