1994 Canucks playoffs mvp

puckpilot

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True but I just want to clarify a few things on what you said wasn't accurate. "Linden playing center that impacted his point total but the fact he had his best season offensively playing center almost full-time in 96.

Ok, what are his point totals after he made, according to your own words, the compete switch to playing center? When he was a winger he scored 30 goals like clockwork. So he gets moved to full time center and has a massive 5 point spike. But then what happens to his point totals in the following seasons? What are the long term effects of the move on his offensive game?

After he ripe old age of 26, he never reaches 30 goals again. He doesn't even reach 20 again. He begins to average 15 goals a season, roughly half of what he did when he was a wing.

I like the way you just ignore that fact. That 80pts season according to your own words is where he transition from center to wing and afterwards his goal totals drop off a cliff.
 
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sr edler

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Canucks had a real good team those years, 92–94, unfortunately it fell apart quickly thereafter with Bure's injuries, Babych getting old, Momesso getting old & irrelevant, Lumme losing his edge, and the subsequent bringing in of pointless fluff scorers like Josef Beranek & Roman Oksiuta. The team looked worse already next year in 94–95 and ran into a veritable wall against Chelios & Chicago in the second round of the playoffs. It's sad because they had a nice center prospect in the pipelines in Peca and could have built something relevant out of that. Instead they brought in Mogilny who had one great year (without Bure) and then disappeared.

On topic it's probably Bure. He was 2+1 in game 7 against Calgary, afterall, and then just steamrolled over Dallas and Toronto. When he got Tikkanen-ed and lost his magic in the first few games against the Rangers in the finals, and got ejected after high-sticking Jay Wells in frustration, the team couldn't really do anything offensively. In game 5 he turned it on a bit again when he set up Babych for the game winner and scored two of his own, and the team rolled a bit on that momentum. He had a 16-game point streak and put up points equally against all teams in all rounds, unlike Gilmour who scored 46% of his playoff points against San Jose in the second round and then was held off the scoresheet thrice against the Canucks in the Conference Finals.

McLean was up there too, but he gets too much credit for one specific game and one specific save. In game 2–4 in the finals he looked mortal. Linden was more of an overall force.
 

Canucks1096

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Ok, what are his point totals after he made, according to your own words, the compete switch to playing center? When he was a winger he scored 30 goals like clockwork. So he gets moved to full time center and has a massive 5 point spike. But then what happens to his point totals in the following seasons? What are the long term effects of the move on his offensive game?

After he ripe old age of 26, he never reaches 30 goals again. He doesn't even reach 20 again. He begins to average 15 goals a season, roughly half of what he did when he was a wing.

I like the way you just ignore that fact. That 80pts season according to your own words is where he transition from center to wing and afterwards his goal totals drop off a cliff.

After 1996 season linden still played center up to 1998 before he was traded. You are right his points did decrease but with New York and Mon he played a lot RW and when he came back to Van he played a lot of rw as well. He was late 20s and early 30s and he still never scored the same as before. Most hockey player at that age still produce. Like I said before the switch to C has pretty much nothing to do with his points total.
 

Canucks1096

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Canucks had a real good team those years, 92–94, unfortunately it fell apart quickly thereafter with Bure's injuries, Babych getting old, Momesso getting old & irrelevant, Lumme losing his edge, and the subsequent bringing in of pointless fluff scorers like Josef Beranek & Roman Oksiuta. The team looked worse already next year in 94–95 and ran into a veritable wall against Chelios & Chicago in the second round of the playoffs. It's sad because they had a nice center prospect in the pipelines in Peca and could have built something relevant out of that. Instead they brought in Mogilny who had one great year (without Bure) and then disappeared.

On topic it's probably Bure. He was 2+1 in game 7 against Calgary, afterall, and then just steamrolled over Dallas and Toronto. When he got Tikkanen-ed and lost his magic in the first few games against the Rangers in the finals, and got ejected after high-sticking Jay Wells in frustration, the team couldn't really do anything offensively. In game 5 he turned it on a bit again when he set up Babych for the game winner and scored two of his own, and the team rolled a bit on that momentum. He had a 16-game point streak and put up points equally against all teams in all rounds, unlike Gilmour who scored 46% of his playoff points against San Jose in the second round and then was held off the scoresheet thrice against the Canucks in the Conference Finals.

McLean was up there too, but he gets too much credit for one specific game and one specific save. In game 2–4 in the finals he looked mortal. Linden was more of an overall force.

Game 2 McLean actually played really well. He will keeping Canucks in the game. He made 37 saves and let in 2 goals. Game 3 and 4 he was pretty bad. Canucks had 2-0 lead in game 4. McLean didn't make those big save to keep the Canucks in the game. Game 3 the whole team fell apart after Bure got the game misconduct. Linden in the finals didn't do much until game 7. Linden only had 3 points in first 6 games and only one at even strength. Linden line had a tough time against Rangers top line and Quinn decided to change match to the McIntyre line out against Messier.

The finals the best player in order 1 Bure 2 Courtnall 3 Ronning 4 McLean 5 Linden

The whole playoffs 1 Bure 2 McLean 3 Linden 4 Courtnall

Clutch 1 Bure 2 Courtnall 3 Linden
 

puckpilot

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After 1996 season linden still played center up to 1998 before he was traded. You are right his points did decrease but with New York and Mon he played a lot RW and when he came back to Van he played a lot of rw as well. He was late 20s and early 30s and he still never scored the same as before. Most hockey player at that age still produce. Like I said before the switch to C has pretty much nothing to do with his points total.

And you don't think bouncing around between center and wing will affect how a player plays overall? Something like that can mess with a player's head. And a player's mental state means everything.

Switching positions isn't an easy thing to do, even if it's switching back. If a player's mindset has been turned to that of a center, it's not so easy to simply switch it back to that of a winger. In Linden's case it became a bell that couldn't be un-rung. Once the fruit has been spoiled, it's spoiled. You can't turn back the clock.

If you check hockey reference, it'll tell you what seasons he played wing and what seasons he played center. He played way more seasons as a center than a wing post 80pt season. If you look at the season he got traded it says he played 25 games at wing as an Islander and scored 10 goals. The next season he played as a center and scored 18 in 82 games. Notice the drop in production at wing vs center? And in terms of games, he played way more center for the Islanders than wing before getting moved to MTL. And for the two seasons he played for MTL, he's listed as a center.

But as I said, regardless of if he got moved back to wing, the damage was done. He lost his 30 goal touch and it was gone forever, and yes, it was because he got switched from wing to center. The evidence is right there as clear as day.
 
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Thenameless

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Linden. He is the Toews to Bure's Kane. A guy like Linden allows your skill players to shine, but you can't win without them.
 
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Canucks1096

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And you don't think bouncing around between center and wing will affect how a player plays overall? Something like that can mess with a player's head. And a player's mental state means everything.

Switching positions isn't an easy thing to do, even if it's switching back. If a player's mindset has been turned to that of a center, it's not so easy to simply switch it back to that of a winger. In Linden's case it became a bell that couldn't be un-rung. Once the fruit has been spoiled, it's spoiled. You can't turn back the clock.

If you check hockey reference, it'll tell you what seasons he played wing and what seasons he played center. He played way more seasons as a center than a wing post 80pt season. If you look at the season he got traded it says he played 25 games at wing as an Islander and scored 10 goals. The next season he played as a center and scored 18 in 82 games. Notice the drop in production at wing vs center? And in terms of games, he played way more center for the Islanders than wing before getting moved to MTL. And for the two seasons he played for MTL, he's listed as a center.

But as I said, regardless of if he got moved back to wing, the damage was done. He lost his 30 goal touch and it was gone forever, and yes, it was because he got switched from wing to center. The evidence is right there as clear as day.

1994 Linden played center for 90% of the playoffs and had his best playoffs 25 points in 24 games. Next season in 1995 with Craven gone Linden started at center and when Canucks got Berenak, Linden moved back to wing and mid way through the season moved back to center and played center for the whole playoffs. That season 40 points in 48 games and Full season pace for is 68 points. The next season in 1996 almost played whole season at center and had 80 points in 82 games. The next season in 1997 played his whole season at center Linden had 40 points in 49 games and full season pace is 67 points. Also dont forgot After 1995 the league scoring started to decrease a little as well. So part of 4 season he played center for long stretches year 94 95 96 97. His production stay around the same or better.. So all of sudden After 4 season playing quite a bit center Linden production start to go down because he plays wing and center? Do you think that's kind of ridiculous? If it did have any impact it wouldn't happened 4 season later.

For the record the position listed on hockey reference are not accurate. 2002 and 2003 Linden played RW usually. 2002 with Cassel and Hlavac 2003 with Sedins or Chuborv Cook and hockey reference listed him as a C. If you go hockeydb thst site listed Linden as a center for 1998/1999 season. I remember NYI and Mon Linden will played both position

It's clear as day because you only see what you want to see. It's so ridiculous all these Linden fans making excuses for him.
 

puckpilot

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The next season in 1997 played his whole season at center Linden had 40 points in 49 games and full season pace is 67 points.

I like how you fail to mention he only had 9 goals this season, which is a 15 goal pace over 82 games. A far cry from his usual 30 goals. His assists may have remained the same but his goal scoring was affected, which is what I've been saying all along.

Also dont forgot After 1995 the league scoring started to decrease a little as well. So part of 4 season he played center for long stretches year 94 95 96 97. His production stay around the same or better.. So all of sudden After 4 season playing quite a bit center Linden production start to go down because he plays wing and center? Do you think that's kind of ridiculous? If it did have any impact it wouldn't happened 4 season later.

And like I said in my previous post, moving a player around affect a player's mindset. That doesn't always translate right away. It's cumulative. And as you said yourself he only played parts of seasons at center in 94,95.

In 95 Beranek came to Vancouver in game 12, so Linden only played 11 games out of 48 at center and 11 playoff games. Add that to the 90% at center in the 94 playoffs that you claim, Linden played only around 32 games at center combined over those seasons of 94 and 95 vs around 132 games at wing.

After 96, and moving to center--again, according to you--the stats show his goal totals drop to that of a 15 goal scorer in 97.

So it's not 4 seasons at center. It's small parts of two and one full season, then his goal scoring drops off a cliff. If there's anyone making excuses it's you and trying to tap dance around the facts that you yourself are providing.

As for him playing wing later on, like I said, his mindset was changed, a bell that couldn't be unrung.

It's clear as day because you only see what you want to see.

I surely hope you're saying this to a mirror.

It's so ridiculous all these Linden fans making excuses for him.

You know the funny thing, I'm not even a Linden fan, but I can see what the facts say.

You're talking a lot, but I don't see any evidence in terms of stats or articles to back your claims.
 
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blood gin

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It's amazing looking at highlights from those 1994 finals. Richter still looks like an a NHL goalie, McLean however looks like a regular skater who just happened to put on a goalie mask. The furthest thing from a pad monster
 

Canucks1096

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I like how you fail to mention he only had 9 goals this season, which is a 15 goal pace over 82 games. A far cry from his usual 30 goals. His assists may have remained the same but his goal scoring was affected, which is what I've been saying all along.



And like I said in my previous post, moving a player around affect a player's mindset. That doesn't always translate right away. It's cumulative. And as you said yourself he only played parts of seasons at center in 94,95.

In 95 Beranek came to Vancouver in game 12, so Linden only played 11 games out of 48 at center and 11 playoff games. Add that to the 90% at center in the 94 playoffs that you claim, Linden played only around 32 games at center combined over those seasons of 94 and 95 vs around 132 games at wing.

After 96, and moving to center--again, according to you--the stats show his goal totals drop to that of a 15 goal scorer in 97.

So it's not 4 seasons at center. It's small parts of two and one full season, then his goal scoring drops off a cliff. If there's anyone making excuses it's you and trying to tap dance around the facts that you yourself are providing.

As for him playing wing later on, like I said, his mindset was changed, a bell that couldn't be unrung.



I surely hope you're saying this to a mirror.



You know the funny thing, I'm not even a Linden fan, but I can see what the facts say.

You're talking a lot, but I don't see any evidence in terms of stats or articles to back your claims.

Vancouver Canucks Legends: Russ Courtnall

It's going to be little hard to find evidences it was 20 years ago. But feel free to post a thread and ask when Linden played center and wing. But I did find this article. 14th paragraph it did say Courntall played with Linden and Gelinas for the 95/96 season. It didn't say Linden played center But we know for fact Courtnall and Gelinas both dont played center. 15th paragraph 96/97 season Courtnall stuck behind Bure and Mogilny RW. If Linden played RW that means Bure Mogilny Courtnall Linden all were on Different lines. I think we both know that never happened. Just look at roster Canucks didn't have enough centers to fill 4 lines.

94/95 season if we look at center that played for the Canucks

Berenek 37 games
Peca 33 games
Ronning 41 games
Mcintyre 28 games
Ruutu 25 games


Those centet Combined 164 games. 4 centers spot x 48 games schedule =192 games. If you look at the roster no other player plays center so the 28 games had to gone to Linden.

So 93/94 playoffs around 20 games.
94/95 regular season about 28 games. Playoffs 11 games
95/96 around 70 games regular season 6 playoffs
96/97 49 games

So takes around 184 games For him to see a decline on switching positions. Sorry that ridiculous. Also you are cherry picking a little bit as you keep talk about him decreasing in goals. 1995 season he on pace for 15. So his mindset impacted his goal. So how come it didn't impact his assist? He was on pace to get career high in assists. But overall he was pace for his usually pace. It's very for you sell me on 184 games playing center and then Linden start to decline.

Also this theory of yours it's just your personal opinion and I respect that but there no facts that you to claim it's true. Also dont forgot Linden had first serious injury as well in 97. That might of impacted his performance as well.

Messier switched from LW to center in early 80s. Buff switch from winger to def when he left Chi. Sharp played center and wing for Chi. Zetterberg played LW and then moved to center. These 4 examples that switch players that no impact on declining production

Can you give me examples that on some players that switch positions and started to decline right away or a few seasons later? If hou cant think of examples that means your theory is not very common and shouldn't used as an argument.
 

blood gin

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Looking back that penalty shot couldn't have been played any worse by Bure. And the save by Richter was not all that impressive either. Most important thing was that the puck was stopped...but Bure did not come in with blazing speed that he would have in a game situation. And he sort of telegraphed that he was going to go to his usual move where he tries to wait and skate a goalie back and then deke around him. Richter was very quick and acrobatic and tough to deke. He was ready for it. Best thing Pavel could've done there was to just skate in pick a corner and fire
 

Canucks1096

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Looking back that penalty shot couldn't have been played any worse by Bure. And the save by Richter was not all that impressive either. Most important thing was that the puck was stopped...but Bure did not come in with blazing speed that he would have in a game situation. And he sort of telegraphed that he was going to go to his usual move where he tries to wait and skate a goalie back and then deke around him. Richter was very quick and acrobatic and tough to deke. He was ready for it. Best thing Pavel could've done there was to just skate in pick a corner and fire

Canucks at that point had a 2-0 lead. If Bure scored it would been 3-0. The Canucks end up losing that game 4-2. If Bure scored maybe the outcome of the game would of been different.
 

puckpilot

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It's going to be little hard to find evidences it was 20 years ago. But feel free to post a thread and ask when Linden played center and wing. But I did find this article. 14th paragraph it did say Courntall played with Linden and Gelinas for the 95/96 season. It didn't say Linden played center But we know for fact Courtnall and Gelinas both dont played center. 15th paragraph 96/97 season Courtnall stuck behind Bure and Mogilny RW. If Linden played RW that means Bure Mogilny Courtnall Linden all were on Different lines. I think we both know that never happened. Just look at roster Canucks didn't have enough centers to fill 4 lines.

Ok I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this wall of text, I've already conceded the point that Linden made the switch to center during the 96 season, where he had is best pt production.

94/95 season if we look at center that played for the Canucks

Berenek 37 games
Peca 33 games
Ronning 41 games
Mcintyre 28 games
Ruutu 25 games


Those centet Combined 164 games. 4 centers spot x 48 games schedule =192 games. If you look at the roster no other player plays center so the 28 games had to gone to Linden.

Your research is sloppy. I like how you conveniently left out Nathan Lafayette, who played 27 games for the Canucks that season.


So 93/94 playoffs around 20 games.
94/95 regular season about 28 games. Playoffs 11 games
95/96 around 70 games regular season 6 playoffs
96/97 49 games

So takes around 184 games For him to see a decline on switching positions. Sorry that ridiculous. Also you are cherry picking a little bit as you keep talk about him decreasing in goals. 1995 season he on pace for 15.

I like how you can't even get the game totals straight. The true totals are.

93/94 - play offs around 20 games
94/95 - 12 games - going by your reasoning and actually counting Lafayette.
95/96 - 82 regular season - 6 playoffs.

That's 120 games, a season and a half.
So his mindset impacted his goal. So how come it didn't impact his assist? He was on pace to get career high in assists. But overall he was pace for his usually pace. It's very for you sell me on 184 games playing center and then Linden start to decline.

I'm assuming you know hockey, so you should know that part of the job of a center is to distribute the puck. When you do that, you're not shooting as much, and you start to develop a pass first mentality. Sometimes that's good for a player. Other times, it's bad. After the 96 season his shot totals begin to drop, reflecting his change in mindset.

When he was playing wing, his shot totals were usually over 200. His previous two seasons before 96 his shot totals were 234 and 129 in 48 games a 220 shot pace over 82 games. In 96 it was 202. In 97 it was 84 in 49 games a 140 shot pace over 82 games. In 98 he was on pace for 144 shots. Other than a 167 shot spike in 99, his shot totals don't get any better.

Also this theory of yours it's just your personal opinion and I respect that but there no facts that you to claim it's true. Also dont forgot Linden had first serious injury as well in 97. That might of impacted his performance as well.

All the facts I've presented support my opinion, his point total drop, his shot total drop coincide with his move to center. In addition, I'm using the accounts and information you provided to support my opinion. From number of games played at center, and when he made that switch.

Now I'm going to do it again and use that site, Canucks legends, that you provide for me to support my claim again. I'm assuming you believe that the writer knows what he's talking about. Doing some poking around on him, he apparently wrote for Sports Illustrated and Hockey news and published some books on hockey.

So now, if you look at that site's entry on Trevor Linden (Vancouver Canucks Legends: Trevor Linden) It has this little gem of a paragraph.

"Linden, a natural right winger, was shifted to center ice later in his career in Vancouver and has played there ever since. He excelled on face-offs and was usually in sound defensive position, but the move changed his game immensely. He was much more physical on right wing. Moving up and down the wall, Linden excelled by hitting and banging. He was always at his best when he was playing physically. However at center ice, Linden did not get the chance to play the same physical game, as he remained disciplined and rarely strayed from the middle of the ice, so that he was not caught out of position should the other team get the puck. This defensive discipline also hurt Trevor's offensive output. He no longer drove to the net as hard as he would if he were on the wing, again sacrificing his offensive output so that someone remains high to help out the defensemen."


Messier switched from LW to center in early 80s. Buff switch from winger to def when he left Chi. Sharp played center and wing for Chi. Zetterberg played LW and then moved to center. These 4 examples that switch players that no impact on declining production

Can you give me examples that on some players that switch positions and started to decline right away or a few seasons later? If hou cant think of examples that means your theory is not very common and shouldn't used as an argument.

Your logic is flawed. It's like saying those four birds are blue, so all birds are blue. Just because some players can switch and do well doesn't mean they all will.

Also, I don't have to show that switching position only results in a decline in production. I just have to show that it can affect production. It doesn't matter if it's negative or positive. And you just showed me the bread crumbs leading to information supporting my claim, a player who switched position and saw a change in production and level of play.

Byfuglien was drafted as a D man, and had a 44pt season in the AHL, and was an AHL All-Star. He had 7pts in 8 AHL games the year he got call up for good. In CHI they then moved him to wing. He was a middling winger until he got moved back to D in ATL, where all of a sudden he turns into a 50pt defenseman, who finished 7th in Norris voting.

And speaking of Blackhawks, another example is Patrick Kane. In the 11/12 season, they tried him at center, and that resulted in a drop in his production and play as documented in the links below. Other than his first two seasons, the 11/12 season is the only season where he didn't average at least a point a game.

Patrick Kane Dilemma and Possible Solutions for the Chicago Blackhawks

Chicago Blackhawks: Will Patrick Kane Ever Adapt as a Center?

Blackhawks end experiment of Kane at center

The cases above are examples of how switching position can affects production and level of play. In addition, here's an article talking about 5 players this year who switched position's and who are either thriving or struggling. So there are your examples.

5 NHL players thriving or stumbling after switching positions this season - Sportsnet.ca

Honestly, It'd be silly to think that a switch in position only results in positive results. If that's the case, then teams would be switching positions of star players all the time. A 50 goal 230 pound center is more valuable than a 50 goal winger, so why don't they switch Ovechkin to center?

I mean hell, a defensman switching sides is a huge thing. And since there's a shortage of Right shot d-men, why not move a forward back there if switching positions doesn't affect how a player performs. I mean a 30pt, right shot d-man is more valuable than a 30pt forward, right?
 
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Canucks1096

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Ok I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with this wall of text, I've already conceded the point that Linden made the switch to center during the 96 season, where he had is best pt production.



Your research is sloppy. I like how you conveniently left out Nathan Lafayette, who played 27 games for the Canucks that season.




I like how you can't even get the game totals straight. The true totals are.

93/94 - play offs around 20 games
94/95 - 12 games - going by your reasoning and actually counting Lafayette.
95/96 - 82 regular season - 6 playoffs.

That's 120 games, a season and a half.


I'm assuming you know hockey, so you should know that part of the job of a center is to distribute the puck. When you do that, you're not shooting as much, and you start to develop a pass first mentality. Sometimes that's good for a player. Other times, it's bad. After the 96 season his shot totals begin to drop, reflecting his change in mindset.

When he was playing wing, his shot totals were usually over 200. His previous two seasons before 96 his shot totals were 234 and 129 in 48 games a 220 shot pace over 82 games. In 96 it was 202. In 97 it was 84 in 49 games a 140 shot pace over 82 games. In 98 he was on pace for 144 shots. Other than a 167 shot spike in 99, his shot totals don't get any better.



All the facts I've presented support my opinion, his point total drop, his shot total drop coincide with his move to center. In addition, I'm using the accounts and information you provided to support my opinion. From number of games played at center, and when he made that switch.

Now I'm going to do it again and use that site, Canucks legends, that you provide for me to support my claim again. I'm assuming you believe that the writer knows what he's talking about. Doing some poking around on him, he apparently wrote for Sports Illustrated and Hockey news and published some books on hockey.

So now, if you look at that site's entry on Trevor Linden (Vancouver Canucks Legends: Trevor Linden) It has this little gem of a paragraph.

"Linden, a natural right winger, was shifted to center ice later in his career in Vancouver and has played there ever since. He excelled on face-offs and was usually in sound defensive position, but the move changed his game immensely. He was much more physical on right wing. Moving up and down the wall, Linden excelled by hitting and banging. He was always at his best when he was playing physically. However at center ice, Linden did not get the chance to play the same physical game, as he remained disciplined and rarely strayed from the middle of the ice, so that he was not caught out of position should the other team get the puck. This defensive discipline also hurt Trevor's offensive output. He no longer drove to the net as hard as he would if he were on the wing, again sacrificing his offensive output so that someone remains high to help out the defensemen."




Your logic is flawed. It's like saying those four birds are blue, so all birds are blue. Just because some players can switch and do well doesn't mean they all will.

Also, I don't have to show that switching position only results in a decline in production. I just have to show that it can affect production. It doesn't matter if it's negative or positive. And you just showed me the bread crumbs leading to information supporting my claim, a player who switched position and saw a change in production and level of play.

Byfuglien was drafted as a D man, and had a 44pt season in the AHL, and was an AHL All-Star. He had 7pts in 8 AHL games the year he got call up for good. In CHI they then moved him to wing. He was a middling winger until he got moved back to D in ATL, where all of a sudden he turns into a 50pt defenseman, who finished 7th in Norris voting.

And speaking of Blackhawks, another example is Patrick Kane. In the 11/12 season, they tried him at center, and that resulted in a drop in his production and play as documented in the links below. Other than his first two seasons, the 11/12 season is the only season where he didn't average at least a point a game.

Patrick Kane Dilemma and Possible Solutions for the Chicago Blackhawks

Chicago Blackhawks: Will Patrick Kane Ever Adapt as a Center?

Blackhawks end experiment of Kane at center

The cases above are examples of how switching position can affects production and level of play. In addition, here's an article talking about 5 players this year who switched position's and who are either thriving or struggling. So there are your examples.

5 NHL players thriving or stumbling after switching positions this season - Sportsnet.ca

Honestly, It'd be silly to think that a switch in position only results in positive results. If that's the case, then teams would be switching positions of star players all the time. A 50 goal 230 pound center is more valuable than a 50 goal winger, so why don't they switch Ovechkin to center?

I mean hell, a defensman switching sides is a huge thing. And since there's a shortage of Right shot d-men, why not move a forward back there if switching positions doesn't affect how a player performs. I mean a 30pt, right shot d-man is more valuable than a 30pt forward, right?

I gave you evidences on the 95/96 season that Linden played center. You wrote according to you. Also you wrote I am not providing evidences

You are right the 94/95 research was a little sloppy. So disregard those games total. Also you are cherry picking on what I said about 94/95 season. Yes I did say Linden played center before we got Berenak and also wrote Linden play center towards the end season as well. But you completely ignore that part.

I gave you some examples of players that can adjust to a new position to prove that there are players out there than can adjust. So it might not be switching position that cause Linden decline.



I like how you gave me examples of players declining at a new position right away. But you are not giving examples of a player that switch position and played some of there best hockey with there new position (94 playoffs and 96 RS) and then started to decline shortly after. I wonder why. Is it because you can't think if any?

Yes everyone is different. Like I said if it not very common. It's not really valid argument.

Yes it is your personal opinion. You can't prove if it was the position change that cause his decline or was it all the injuries or maybe it was Keenan or maybe the game wasn't it as wide open and he couldn't adjust. All those things happened around the samething on his decline.

It doesn't matter what the reason why Linden was getting a lot assists in 96/97 season. The fact he was still points and was on pace for around the same point total. It didn't impact for overall point total

If switching position was the main reason why his production decrease. It wouldn't of happened over 100 games later and wouldn't be able to have his best playoffs and best regular season at center.

Also you didn't get the game calculation right as well. You didn't add in the 11 playoffs game in 1995. When you are calling out somebody about there adding. You should make sure you don't mistake as well. Lol

So if we add in those 11 playoffs game from 1995 and 49 games in 1997. Thats 180 games at center.

1994 20 playoffs games 20 points
1995 12 regular season game 10 points (prorated)
1995 11 playoffs games 8 points
1996 82 regular season games 80 points
1996 6 playoffs games 8 points
1997 49 regular season game 40 points

So 180 games at center he has 166 points. Linden switching has nothing to do with decline. His decline was due to something else

I think when you use the Linden changing position as your argument to defend Linden decline. you didnt realize he had best season at center. Now you have to say switching position get take years to change your mindset. Now you have to make such a ridiculous comment so you can defend your argument. Lol.
 
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David Bruce Banner

Nude Cabdriver Ban
Mar 25, 2008
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3,217
Streets Ahead
McLean gave us some great goaltending. You just knew that if you gave him a chance to save a shot, he would.
Bure was lethal offensively, he could almost always be counted on to score a goal when we really needed one.
But say what you will about him since, but Linden was the heart and soul of that team during those playoffs. He did it all... offense, defense, physical play... he was everything a SC finalist team captain should be. So I vote him.

Linden/McLean/Bure

And it's very, very close.
 

puckpilot

Registered User
Oct 23, 2016
1,228
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You are right the 94/95 research was a little sloppy. So disregard those games total. Also you are cherry picking on what I said about 94/95 season. Yes I did say Linden played center before we got Berenak and also wrote Linden play center towards the end season as well. But you completely ignore that part.

Ok, you gave the following info on games played by centers and claimed that the 28 unaccounted for games went to Linden. But isn't it convenient that you left out Lafayette's 27 games. If we account for them, according to your reasoning, where's the room at center for Linden to have played? These are your stats, and according to them, there's only 1 game unaccounted for.

Berenek 37 games
Peca 33 games
Ronning 41 games
Mcintyre 28 games
Ruutu 25 games

Those centet Combined 164 games. 4 centers spot x 48 games schedule =192 games. If you look at the roster no other player plays center so the 28 games had to gone to Linden.


I like how you gave me examples of players declining at a new position right away. But you are not giving examples of a player that switch position and played some of there best hockey with there new position (94 playoffs and 96 RS) and then started to decline shortly after. I wonder why. Is it because you can't think if any?

I like how you're now trying to moving the goalposts after I gave you a very prominent example meeting your criteria. Here's what you specifically asked for.

Can you give me examples that on some players that switch positions and started to decline right away or a few seasons later? If hou cant think of examples that means your theory is not very common and shouldn't used as an argument.


Yes it is your personal opinion. You can't prove if it was the position change that cause his decline or was it all the injuries or maybe it was Keenan or maybe the game wasn't it as wide open and he couldn't adjust. All those things happened around the samething on his decline.

Maybe it was, but you're not offering up a compelling argument with support from the stats or articles to make anyone change their minds. I mean the website you directed me to has an article on Linden that specifically states his decline was because of his move to center. I like how you completely ignore things you yourself bring forward when it doesn't support your claim.

You offer up a site as evidence to support your claims, but ignore that site when I find something on it that drops a bomb on your position.

It doesn't matter what the reason why Linden was getting a lot assists in 96/97 season. The fact he was still points and was on pace for around the same point total. It didn't impact for overall point total

You're admitting it yourself. It changed his game. Just because something kind of works short term doesn't mean it works long term.

If switching position was the main reason why his production decrease. It wouldn't of happened over 100 games later and wouldn't be able to have his best playoffs and best regular season at center.

How many times do I have to repeat myself? You can ask this question a hundred million times. I've answered it already. It changed his mindset and it changed his game, and the changed happened over the course of that time.

Also you didn't get the game calculation right as well. You didn't add in the 11 playoffs game in 1995. When you are calling out somebody about there adding. You should make sure you don't mistake as well. Lol

Good for you. You a big boy now. Do you want dada to give you a pat on the head now?

So if we add in those 11 playoffs game from 1995 and 49 games in 1997. Thats 180 games at center.

1994 20 playoffs games 20 points
1995 12 regular season game 10 points (prorated)
1995 11 playoffs games 8 points
1996 82 regular season games 80 points
1996 6 playoffs games 8 points
1997 49 regular season game 40 points

So 180 games at center he has 166 points. Linden switching has nothing to do with decline. His decline was due to something else

In 94 and 95 he played according to you 43 games at center vs 120 at win. Unless we follow your argument about the number of games played by all the centers mentioned above. In which case, there was only room for Linden to have played 1 game at center, because all the other games were accounted for. Not sure which set of "facts" you want to follow. *shrug*

But, I'll give that to you. Regardless, other than in playoffs those years, he was pretty much still a winger. Again, I'm repeating myself here, but his goal totals in 97 show his change in mind set after a full-time move to center and the start of his decline. 30 goal player before full-time move to center. 15 goal player afterwards. Simple as that.

You want to keep juggling the numbers to fit your narrative, go right ahead. And don't forget to move the goal posts.
 

Canucks1096

Registered User
Feb 13, 2016
5,608
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Ok, you gave the following info on games played by centers and claimed that the 28 unaccounted for games went to Linden. But isn't it convenient that you left out Lafayette's 27 games. If we account for them, according to your reasoning, where's the room at center for Linden to have played? These are your stats, and according to them, there's only 1 game unaccounted for.






I like how you're now trying to moving the goalposts after I gave you a very prominent example meeting your criteria. Here's what you specifically asked for.






Maybe it was, but you're not offering up a compelling argument with support from the stats or articles to make anyone change their minds. I mean the website you directed me to has an article on Linden that specifically states his decline was because of his move to center. I like how you completely ignore things you yourself bring forward when it doesn't support your claim.

You offer up a site as evidence to support your claims, but ignore that site when I find something on it that drops a bomb on your position.



You're admitting it yourself. It changed his game. Just because something kind of works short term doesn't mean it works long term.



How many times do I have to repeat myself? You can ask this question a hundred million times. I've answered it already. It changed his mindset and it changed his game, and the changed happened over the course of that time.



Good for you. You a big boy now. Do you want dada to give you a pat on the head now?



In 94 and 95 he played according to you 43 games at center vs 120 at win. Unless we follow your argument about the number of games played by all the centers mentioned above. In which case, there was only room for Linden to have played 1 game at center, because all the other games were accounted for. Not sure which set of "facts" you want to follow. *shrug*

But, I'll give that to you. Regardless, other than in playoffs those years, he was pretty much still a winger. Again, I'm repeating myself here, but his goal totals in 97 show his change in mind set after a full-time move to center and the start of his decline. 30 goal player before full-time move to center. 15 goal player afterwards. Simple as that.

You want to keep juggling the numbers to fit your narrative, go right ahead. And don't forget to move the goal posts.

I did admit I made a mistake on the 1995 numbers. I do remember when Russ Courntall came he played with Linden and his brother. Towards the end of the season Bure played with Linden and Courtnall. If you want we can use that 1 game as a sample. But that doesn't change the same size that much.

A lot of things that can cause a player to decline happened around 1997. Games was more tight checking. Injuries, bad coach, his "C" was gone. Say what you want about Linden was still a winger up to 97 but he still played a lot of center. But I have the numbers to prove that Linden was effective at center for long stretches. 180 games is not a small sample. So you are the one that's challenging the numbers that a switch in position that cause his play to decline. So shouldn't you be on that give me examples on why his decline was due to switching position and not the other things I said?

For the record me telling you all those things that can make a player decline in production happened all around the sometimes. That is clear evidence already that it might not be the position change.

Not really those examples that you gave me it showed player production decline for that season or 2. It wasn't for there whole career. But you are not giving specific sample like your theory on Linden. A player decline forever because of a position change

The article about Linden talks nothing about the mindset. So its kind of different from your theory. What he wrote was little in accurate because he play his best hockey at center. I have the numbers to prove that. That site I Used linden game sample size for 96. If you want you can find evidences go proves that's wrong. Go ahead

One more thing I never said yet. Linden ppp decrease a lot as well. Linden at wing or center he plays same position on the pp. So explain that to me? So his mindset impact him on the pp. So when he infront of net and has the puck he looking pass instead?

If you can't find me specific examples of a player declining forever because of a position change. Also if you can't find specific reason on Linden decline wasn't because of injuries, game more tight checking. Bad coach from Keenan and the "C" gone. You pretty much lost this argument.
 

Canucks1096

Registered User
Feb 13, 2016
5,608
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In effect that began the transition of turning an all star winger that had room to grow offensively into two-way center who's upside in terms of point production probably suffered.

I am not sure why you are trying so hard to debate about Linden production decline because he played center. This is what you wrote a week ago. "Point production probably suffered" when someone uses the word "probably" it means there not 100% Sure if that is accurate and not fully confident if there answer is accurate.
 
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puckpilot

Registered User
Oct 23, 2016
1,228
880
180 games is not a small sample. So you are the one that's challenging the numbers that a switch in position that cause his play to decline. So shouldn't you be on that give me examples on why his decline was due to switching position and not the other things I said?

First, you have to take into account how those games are accumulated. They dabble with him at center in 94 and 95, They make the full time switch in 96 and has a great season. But then in 97 his goal total drops, his shot totals drop, and they never recover. You keep wanting to put the 49 games in 97 into that sample size to skew it, but really that season was when he started to drop, after only one season as a full time center.

There's pre-switch Linden, before 96, and post-switch Linden, after 96. The picture is clear.

Not really those examples that you gave me it showed player production decline for that season or 2. It wasn't for there whole career. But you are not giving specific sample like your theory on Linden. A player decline forever because of a position change

This is such a dishonest statement. Stop moving the goal posts. You asked for examples of players declining immediately or over a period. You never asked for examples of players declining forever. Shame on you man. Shame. Shame.

I provided a link to examples of immediate drops and highlighted Patrick Kane as an example. Yet, somehow it's not good enough because the team realized their mistake and switched him back.

The article about Linden talks nothing about the mindset. So its kind of different from your theory. What he wrote was little in accurate because he play his best hockey at center. I have the numbers to prove that. That site I Used linden game sample size for 96. If you want you can find evidences go proves that's wrong. Go ahead

I am not sure why you are trying so hard to debate about Linden production decline because he played center. This is what you wrote a week ago. "Point production probably suffered" when someone uses the word "probably" it means there not 100% Sure if that is accurate and not fully confident if there answer is accurate.

So this is your coup de grace? I used the word probably so all of a sudden my arguments are invalid? Seriously?

I like to keep an open mind and leave room to be convinced otherwise. But every bit of information you brought me did nothing but convince me of how solid a footing my stance is resting on. And it's capped off by you using a site as a resource to support your position not realizing an article on that same site, written by the same writer, says the following.

"Linden, a natural right winger, was shifted to center ice later in his career in Vancouver and has played there ever since. He excelled on face-offs and was usually in sound defensive position, but the move changed his game immensely. He was much more physical on right wing. Moving up and down the wall, Linden excelled by hitting and banging. He was always at his best when he was playing physically. However at center ice, Linden did not get the chance to play the same physical game, as he remained disciplined and rarely strayed from the middle of the ice, so that he was not caught out of position should the other team get the puck. This defensive discipline also hurt Trevor's offensive output. He no longer drove to the net as hard as he would if he were on the wing, again sacrificing his offensive output so that someone remains high to help out the defensemen."


I think I'm done here. Because, I'm not going to play the game of chase the moving goal posts. But I shouldn't be surprised. You wouldn't even accept the testimony of Cliff Ronning saying Linden was gritty because it didn't support your narrative of him not.

Soooo done. You may now have the last word.
 

Canucks1096

Registered User
Feb 13, 2016
5,608
1,667
First, you have to take into account how those games are accumulated. They dabble with him at center in 94 and 95, They make the full time switch in 96 and has a great season. But then in 97 his goal total drops, his shot totals drop, and they never recover. You keep wanting to put the 49 games in 97 into that sample size to skew it, but really that season was when he started to drop, after only one season as a full time center.

There's pre-switch Linden, before 96, and post-switch Linden, after 96. The picture is clear.



This is such a dishonest statement. Stop moving the goal posts. You asked for examples of players declining immediately or over a period. You never asked for examples of players declining forever. Shame on you man. Shame. Shame.

I provided a link to examples of immediate drops and highlighted Patrick Kane as an example. Yet, somehow it's not good enough because the team realized their mistake and switched him back.





So this is your coup de grace? I used the word probably so all of a sudden my arguments are invalid? Seriously?

I like to keep an open mind and leave room to be convinced otherwise. But every bit of information you brought me did nothing but convince me of how solid a footing my stance is resting on. And it's capped off by you using a site as a resource to support your position not realizing an article on that same site, written by the same writer, says the following.

"Linden, a natural right winger, was shifted to center ice later in his career in Vancouver and has played there ever since. He excelled on face-offs and was usually in sound defensive position, but the move changed his game immensely. He was much more physical on right wing. Moving up and down the wall, Linden excelled by hitting and banging. He was always at his best when he was playing physically. However at center ice, Linden did not get the chance to play the same physical game, as he remained disciplined and rarely strayed from the middle of the ice, so that he was not caught out of position should the other team get the puck. This defensive discipline also hurt Trevor's offensive output. He no longer drove to the net as hard as he would if he were on the wing, again sacrificing his offensive output so that someone remains high to help out the defensemen."


I think I'm done here. Because, I'm not going to play the game of chase the moving goal posts. But I shouldn't be surprised. You wouldn't even accept the testimony of Cliff Ronning saying Linden was gritty because it didn't support your narrative of him not.

Soooo done. You may now have the last word.

If you go back and read what I wrote

"Can you give me some examples on some players that switch positions and started to decline right away or a few season later? If you can't give me any examples that means your theory is not very common and shouldn't be used as an argument"

You are right I didn't write the word forever. But we are talking about a player that decline for every in Trevor Linden. So it would make sense if you provide a players that decline forever. The last sentence indicates that I want example to back up your theory. Your examples don't back that up.

Also you ignore my ppp argument and also you are not provided facts about the switch to center cause his decline and not the injuries. Dpe he couldn't adapt. " No C". Coaching. Got traded. Like I said before there is no clear evidence that show it was because of the position switch that cause his decline and nothing else. He missed 33 games in 1997 season. Do you really think that it was nothing else that cause Linden decline?

Your argument is about Linden mindset. That article talks nothing about his mindset. So you should find me an article that talks about Linden mindset instead. If you want to drop your mindset argument and just used the article as your argument. Sure but that article is not is accurate because we determine already that Linden switched back RW and he still couldn't do what he is done before. So is eithwr you use your mindset argument or that article.

Like I said if you dont provide examples on your mindset theory aegument that similiar to Linden. Also evidences it was switching position that cause Linden decline and nothing else. You lost this argument and I win
 

Canucks1096

Registered User
Feb 13, 2016
5,608
1,667
First, you have to take into account how those games are accumulated. They dabble with him at center in 94 and 95, They make the full time switch in 96 and has a great season. But then in 97 his goal total drops, his shot totals drop, and they never recover. You keep wanting to put the 49 games in 97 into that sample size to skew it, but really that season was when he started to drop, after only one season as a full time center.

There's pre-switch Linden, before 96, and post-switch Linden, after 96. The picture is clear.



This is such a dishonest statement. Stop moving the goal posts. You asked for examples of players declining immediately or over a period. You never asked for examples of players declining forever. Shame on you man. Shame. Shame.

I provided a link to examples of immediate drops and highlighted Patrick Kane as an example. Yet, somehow it's not good enough because the team realized their mistake and switched him back.





So this is your coup de grace? I used the word probably so all of a sudden my arguments are invalid? Seriously?

I like to keep an open mind and leave room to be convinced otherwise. But every bit of information you brought me did nothing but convince me of how solid a footing my stance is resting on. And it's capped off by you using a site as a resource to support your position not realizing an article on that same site, written by the same writer, says the following.

"Linden, a natural right winger, was shifted to center ice later in his career in Vancouver and has played there ever since. He excelled on face-offs and was usually in sound defensive position, but the move changed his game immensely. He was much more physical on right wing. Moving up and down the wall, Linden excelled by hitting and banging. He was always at his best when he was playing physically. However at center ice, Linden did not get the chance to play the same physical game, as he remained disciplined and rarely strayed from the middle of the ice, so that he was not caught out of position should the other team get the puck. This defensive discipline also hurt Trevor's offensive output. He no longer drove to the net as hard as he would if he were on the wing, again sacrificing his offensive output so that someone remains high to help out the defensemen."


I think I'm done here. Because, I'm not going to play the game of chase the moving goal posts. But I shouldn't be surprised. You wouldn't even accept the testimony of Cliff Ronning saying Linden was gritty because it didn't support your narrative of him not.

Soooo done. You may now have the last word.

If one day all of sudden you think of a better argument and examples to defend my arguments. Feel free to start this up again.

With all those messages you still didn't given me a valid argument on Linden decline was because he was switched to center and not because of injuries, dpe, coaching, no C. Picture is clear is not valid argument. For the record Linden had 22 points in his last 22 games in 1997 season. Which proves that Linden still had game that season and was the injuries was holding him back. So picture is not as clear as day. You didn't research with much context.

I am pretty sure you are not giving an example of a player switch position and played his best hockey and then decline for every because you can't think of any.

Btw that Linden article doesn't mean much because me and you agree that Linden switch back to RW later in his career and He couldn't get back his game so the proves that article is not accurate. Articles talks nothing about mindset like what you said.
 

Danny46

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Dec 28, 2015
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To this day still pisses me off that Bure never won the Stanley Cup, most exciting player to watch ever in my opinion...
 
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