1990 NHL Entry draft REDONE

[pavel13]

had jagr continued his pace from his first 11 seasons, i think he wins out against brodeur. but dipping so dramatically at age 30 cannot be seen as a good thing. brodeur is still his amazing self, which gives him the edge.

Dipped so dramatically? The NHL isn't the same it was in the early-mid 90s. How many 200 point seasons did Gretzky have in the 90s?

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Dipped so dramatically? The NHL isn't the same it was in the early-mid 90s. How many 200 point seasons did Gretzky have in the 90s?

going from 120+ point seasons to 80 point seasons is a huge drop. his 120 point seasons were in the midst of the defensive era where goals per game was around 5.3. his big seasons were in the mid 90s and in the late 90s. the late 90s were VERY defensive.

 

[meehan]

Dipped so dramatically? The NHL isn't the same it was in the early-mid 90s. How many 200 point seasons did Gretzky have in the 90s?

More important then statistics is the fact that from here on out he will never be considered the best forward in the game, like he was years ago.

 

[pavel13]

going from 120+ point seasons to 80 point seasons is a huge drop. his 120 point seasons were in the midst of the defensive era where goals per game was around 5.3. his big seasons were in the mid 90s and in the late 90s. the late 90s were VERY defensive.

And there's more defense now than the late 90s. How many players in the last three years have scored 100 points?

In 85-86 Gretzky had 215 points in 80 games. In 87-88 he had 149 points in 64 games.

93-94: 130 points in 81 games
94-95: 48 points in 48 games

 

[pavel13]

More important then statistics is the fact that from here on out he will never be considered the best forward in the game, like he was years ago.

Was Brodeur the consensus best player in the NHL at any time in his career?

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

And there's more defense now than the late 90s. How many players in the last three years have scored 100 points?

In 85-86 Gretzky had 215 points in 80 games. In 87-88 he had 149 points in 64 games.

93-94: 130 points in 81 games
94-95: 48 points in 48 games

There hasn't been 100 pt scorers the last 3 years because Jagr isn't as good as he was before.

1998 - Jagr wins art ross, is the only 100 pt scorer.
1999 - Jagr wins art ross with 127 pts(20 pts more than anyone else)
2000 - Jagr wins art ross with 96 pts
2001 - Jagr wins art ross with 121 pts (only one other scored 100 pts - Sakic)

So..pretty much the only consistent 100 pt scorer was Jagr...he's not as good anymore, so we're not seeing 100 pt scorers like we were 3 to 6 years ago.(which was still very much in the defensive era)

Bottom line, if you think Jagr is still as good as he once was, you didn't watch him play during his prime.

 

[pavel13]

There hasn't been 100 pt scorers the last 3 years because Jagr isn't as good as he was before.

1998 - Jagr wins art ross, is the only 100 pt scorer.
1999 - Jagr wins art ross with 127 pts(20 pts more than anyone else)
2000 - Jagr wins art ross with 96 pts
2001 - Jagr wins art ross with 121 pts (only one other scored 100 pts - Sakic)

So..pretty much the only consistent 100 pt scorer was Jagr...he's not as good anymore, so we're not seeing 100 pt scorers like we were 3 to 6 years ago.(which was still very much in the defensive era)

Bottom line, if you think Jagr is still as good as he once was, you didn't watch him play during his prime.

I have never said that Jagr is as good now as he was in his prime.

Consider this: Jagr has been a scoring threat throughout his career, with different linemates and different teams. Jagr was 15th in scoring this year, 20th the year before, two years ago (01-02) he was 5th. He was 8th in 93-94. 95-96, he was second only to Mario Lemieux. In 96-97, he was 6th. Five other years he has won the Art Ross.

Even in his period of decreased production (since he left Pittsburgh), he is still scoring at over a point per game, and still near the top of the scoring race.

Brodeur has played on an amazing defensive team. Do you think that his stats would be the same playing on Florida or Columbus?

 

[meehan]

Was Brodeur the consensus best player in the NHL at any time in his career?

No. But he the best goaltender now and when their careers are over he will have had the better career.

 

[meehan]

Brodeur has played on an amazing defensive team. Do you think that his stats would be the same playing on Florida or Columbus?

Do you think Jagr's stats would be the same if he didn't play most of his career on Pittsburg teams with good offensive players? Oh right, he has the last few years and surprise surprise, his scoring numbers have gone down(which is all that matters about him as he gives you NOTHING else).

 

[Rails]

Stanley Cups
Brodeur - 3
Jagr - 2

Brodeur on ice 60 minutes a game
Jagr on ice 20-25 minutes (22 minute average since 1998 season)

 

[pavel13]

Do you think Jagr's stats would be the same if he didn't play most of his career on Pittsburg teams with good offensive players? Oh right, he has the last few years and surprise surprise, his scoring numbers have gone down(which is all that matters about him as he gives you NOTHING else).

Jagr has scored at over a point per game since leaving Pittsburgh. If he had scored at the same rate over his whole career, he'd still be a Hall of Famer.

 

[meehan]

Jagr has scored at over a point per game since leaving Pittsburgh. If he had scored at the same rate over his whole career, he'd still be a Hall of Famer.

Maybe. But he wouldn't be the best player at his position; something Brodeur will probably be until the end of his career and then when it's all said and done, he will have the numbers where you can make the argument he's the best ever. Jagr will simply not have those numbers nor will he win more awards. At their best, Jagr was better. However, at this point in time, if I were to make a prediction who will end up with the better career when it's all said and done....the smart money is on Brodeur.

 

[pavel13]

Let's take a look at Corey Schwab, who played his first season and last two with the Devils.

Season Team GP MIN W L T GA SO Avg
1995-1996 Devils 10 330 0 3 0 12 0 2.18
1996-1997 Lightning 31 1,462 11 12 1 74 2 3.04
1997-1998 Lightning 16 820 2 9 1 40 1 2.92
1998-1999 Lightning 40 2,145 8 25 3 126 0 3.52
1999-2000 Canucks 6 268 2 1 1 16 0 3.57
2001-2002 Maple Leafs 30 1,645 12 10 5 75 1 2.73
2002-2003 Devils 11 613 5 3 1 15 1 1.47
2003-2004 Devils 3 187 2 0 1 2 1 0.64

NHL Totals 147 7,474 42 63 13 360 6 2.89

Well, in his time with the Devils (when he was backing up Martin Brodeur) his GAA was less than two. For the reast of his career, it was pretty close to 3.00. Obviously 24 games isn't a great sample, but I think it makes a fairly strong case for Brodeur being overrated. Especially considering that Schwab has never moved to another team and become a starter. He's a career NHL backup, and his stats are comparable to Brodeur's when he was with the Devils, but terrible everywhere else.

Goalie stats for 93-94
Player GP Min GA GAA W L T Svs Pct EN SO
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin Brodeur 47.00 2625 105 2.40 27 11 8 1133 0.915 0 3
Chris Terreri 44.00 2340 106 2.72 20 11 4 1035 0.907 2 2
Peter Sidorkiewicz 3.00 130 6 2.77 0 3 0 49 0.891 1 0

94-95
Martin Brodeur 40.00 2184 89 2.45 19 11 6 819 0.902 1 3
Chris Terreri 15.00 734 31 2.53 3 7 2 278 0.900 0 0

95-96
Corey Schwab 10.00 331 12 2.18 0 3 0 107 0.899 0 0
Martin Brodeur 77.00 4434 173 2.34 34 30 12 1772 0.911 8 6
Chris Terreri 4.00 210 9 2.57 3 0 0 83 0.902 0 0

96-97
Martin Brodeur 67.00 3838 120 1.88 37 14 13 1513 0.927 5 10
Mike Dunham 26.00 1013 43 2.55 8 7 1 413 0.906 1 2
Jeff Reese 3.00 139 13 5.61 0 2 0 52 0.800 0 0

97-98
Martin Brodeur 70.00 4128 130 1.89 43 17 8 1569 0.917 4 10
Richard Shulmistra 1.00 62 2 1.94 0 1 0 30 0.933 0 0
Mike Dunham 15.00 773 29 2.25 5 5 3 332 0.913 0 1
Peter Sidorkiewicz 1.00 20 1 3.00 0 0 0 8 0.875 0 0

98-99
Martin Brodeur 70.00 4239 162 2.29 39 21 10 1566 0.906 4 4
Chris Terreri 12.00 726 30 2.48 8 3 1 264 0.898 0 1

99-00
Martin Brodeur 72.00 4312 161 2.24 43 20 8 1797 0.910 3 6
Chris Terreri 12.00 649 37 3.42 2 9 0 299 0.876 2 0

00-01
John Vanbiesbrouck 4.00 240 6 1.50 4 0 0 87 0.935 0 1
Martin Brodeur 72.00 4297 166 2.32 42 17 11 1762 0.906 2 9
Chris Terreri 10.00 453 21 2.78 2 5 1 146 0.874 0 0

01-02
John Vanbiesbrouck 5.00 300 10 2.00 2 3 0 117 0.915 2 0
Martin Brodeur 73.00 4347 156 2.15 38 26 9 1655 0.906 5 4
Jean-Francois Damphousse 6.00 294 12 2.45 1 3 0 115 0.896 1 0
Scott Clemmensen 2.00 20 1 3.00 0 0 0 5 0.800 0 0

02-03
Corey Schwab 11.00 614 15 1.47 5 3 1 208 0.933 0 1
Martin Brodeur 73.00 4374 147 2.02 41 23 9 1559 0.914 4 9

03-04
Corey Schwab 3.00 187 2 0.64 2 0 1 66 0.971 0 1
Scott Clemmensen 4.00 237 4 1.01 3 1 0 80 0.952 0 2
Martin Brodeur 75.00 4554 154 2.03 38 26 11 1691 0.917 4 11

New Jersey's GAA since Brodeur has been on the team: 2.31
Martin Brodeur's career GAA: 2.17

.14 goals against per game, IMO is not the difference between the "best goaltender of all time" and a backup goaltender. That's only one goal per seven games played. Brodeur's stats are largely the result of playing on a great defensive team for his whole career.

 

[meehan]

Let's take a look at Corey Schwab, who played his first season and last two with the Devils.

Season Team GP MIN W L T GA SO Avg
1995-1996 Devils 10 330 0 3 0 12 0 2.18
1996-1997 Lightning 31 1,462 11 12 1 74 2 3.04
1997-1998 Lightning 16 820 2 9 1 40 1 2.92
1998-1999 Lightning 40 2,145 8 25 3 126 0 3.52
1999-2000 Canucks 6 268 2 1 1 16 0 3.57
2001-2002 Maple Leafs 30 1,645 12 10 5 75 1 2.73
2002-2003 Devils 11 613 5 3 1 15 1 1.47
2003-2004 Devils 3 187 2 0 1 2 1 0.64

NHL Totals 147 7,474 42 63 13 360 6 2.89

Well, in his time with the Devils (when he was backing up Martin Brodeur) his GAA was less than two. For the reast of his career, it was pretty close to 3.00. Obviously 24 games isn't a great sample, but I think it makes a fairly strong case for Brodeur being overrated. Especially considering that Schwab has never moved to another team and become a starter. He's a career NHL backup, and his stats are comparable to Brodeur's when he was with the Devils, but terrible everywhere else.

Goalie stats for 93-94
Player GP Min GA GAA W L T Svs Pct EN SO
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin Brodeur 47.00 2625 105 2.40 27 11 8 1133 0.915 0 3
Chris Terreri 44.00 2340 106 2.72 20 11 4 1035 0.907 2 2
Peter Sidorkiewicz 3.00 130 6 2.77 0 3 0 49 0.891 1 0

94-95
Martin Brodeur 40.00 2184 89 2.45 19 11 6 819 0.902 1 3
Chris Terreri 15.00 734 31 2.53 3 7 2 278 0.900 0 0

95-96
Corey Schwab 10.00 331 12 2.18 0 3 0 107 0.899 0 0
Martin Brodeur 77.00 4434 173 2.34 34 30 12 1772 0.911 8 6
Chris Terreri 4.00 210 9 2.57 3 0 0 83 0.902 0 0

96-97
Martin Brodeur 67.00 3838 120 1.88 37 14 13 1513 0.927 5 10
Mike Dunham 26.00 1013 43 2.55 8 7 1 413 0.906 1 2
Jeff Reese 3.00 139 13 5.61 0 2 0 52 0.800 0 0

97-98
Martin Brodeur 70.00 4128 130 1.89 43 17 8 1569 0.917 4 10
Richard Shulmistra 1.00 62 2 1.94 0 1 0 30 0.933 0 0
Mike Dunham 15.00 773 29 2.25 5 5 3 332 0.913 0 1
Peter Sidorkiewicz 1.00 20 1 3.00 0 0 0 8 0.875 0 0

98-99
Martin Brodeur 70.00 4239 162 2.29 39 21 10 1566 0.906 4 4
Chris Terreri 12.00 726 30 2.48 8 3 1 264 0.898 0 1

99-00
Martin Brodeur 72.00 4312 161 2.24 43 20 8 1797 0.910 3 6
Chris Terreri 12.00 649 37 3.42 2 9 0 299 0.876 2 0

00-01
John Vanbiesbrouck 4.00 240 6 1.50 4 0 0 87 0.935 0 1
Martin Brodeur 72.00 4297 166 2.32 42 17 11 1762 0.906 2 9
Chris Terreri 10.00 453 21 2.78 2 5 1 146 0.874 0 0

01-02
John Vanbiesbrouck 5.00 300 10 2.00 2 3 0 117 0.915 2 0
Martin Brodeur 73.00 4347 156 2.15 38 26 9 1655 0.906 5 4
Jean-Francois Damphousse 6.00 294 12 2.45 1 3 0 115 0.896 1 0
Scott Clemmensen 2.00 20 1 3.00 0 0 0 5 0.800 0 0

02-03
Corey Schwab 11.00 614 15 1.47 5 3 1 208 0.933 0 1
Martin Brodeur 73.00 4374 147 2.02 41 23 9 1559 0.914 4 9

03-04
Corey Schwab 3.00 187 2 0.64 2 0 1 66 0.971 0 1
Scott Clemmensen 4.00 237 4 1.01 3 1 0 80 0.952 0 2
Martin Brodeur 75.00 4554 154 2.03 38 26 11 1691 0.917 4 11

New Jersey's GAA since Brodeur has been on the team: 2.31
Martin Brodeur's career GAA: 2.17

.14 goals against per game, IMO is not the difference between the "best goaltender of all time" and a backup goaltender. That's only one goal per seven games played. Brodeur's stats are largely the result of playing on a great defensive team for his whole career.

How about looking at the reprocussions of the goals against difference. Brodeur's record since 1994-1995: 374-205-97(.625 win %). Backups record: 48-52-10(.459 win %). It seems that the goals Brodeur saves are very critical in how much his team wins. Another anti Brodeur argument squashed.

 

[pavel13]

How about looking at the reprocussions of the goals against difference. Brodeur's record since 1994-1995: 374-205-97(.625 win %). Backups record: 48-52-10(.459 win %). It seems that the goals Brodeur saves are very critical in how much his team wins. Another anti Brodeur argument squashed.

These aren't amazing goaltenders backing him up. It's expected for his stats to be better. I'm not saying that he's no better than Corey Schwab or Chris Terreri. I'm saying that many other players could have done a similar job and showing that his stats (which is a big consideration when talking about Hall of Fame players) are largely a product of playing within a great system.

 

[meehan]

These aren't amazing goaltenders backing him up. It's expected for his stats to be better. I'm not saying that he's no better than Corey Schwab or Chris Terreri. I'm saying that many other players could have done a similar job and showing that his stats (which is a big consideration when talking about Hall of Fame players) are largely a product of playing within a great system.

See when you get into could haves or would haves you really don't say anything. You say many other players could have won as much as Brodeur has. This implies that there are many players on or above his level. SHOW ME the many players in the history of the game that have his success. Find a way to PROVE this claim instead of just spurting out the weak "could" haves.

 

[pavel13]

See when you get into could haves or would haves you really don't say anything. You say many other players could have won as much as Brodeur has. This implies that there are many players on or above his level. SHOW ME the many players in the history of the game that have his success. Find a way to PROVE this claim instead of just spurting out the weak "could" haves.

I didn't say that there are "many players on or above his level." I said that many goaltenders would have similar stats if they had played on NJ. Just look at the players that backed him up: similar stats. It stands to reason then, that other players also could have had similar stats playing with New Jersey. Corey Schwab and Chris Terreri aren't immediately behind Brodeur in ability. If a career backup has similar stats to Brodeur while playing with New Jersey, and pretty terrible stats everywhere else, what should lead me to believe that there isn't any other goaltender in NHL history who could have similar stats to Brodeur playing with NJ.

 

[meehan]

Let's take a look at Corey Schwab, who played his first season and last two with the Devils.

Season Team GP MIN W L T GA SO Avg
1995-1996 Devils 10 330 0 3 0 12 0 2.18
1996-1997 Lightning 31 1,462 11 12 1 74 2 3.04
1997-1998 Lightning 16 820 2 9 1 40 1 2.92
1998-1999 Lightning 40 2,145 8 25 3 126 0 3.52
1999-2000 Canucks 6 268 2 1 1 16 0 3.57
2001-2002 Maple Leafs 30 1,645 12 10 5 75 1 2.73
2002-2003 Devils 11 613 5 3 1 15 1 1.47
2003-2004 Devils 3 187 2 0 1 2 1 0.64

NHL Totals 147 7,474 42 63 13 360 6 2.89

Well, in his time with the Devils (when he was backing up Martin Brodeur) his GAA was less than two. For the reast of his career, it was pretty close to 3.00. Obviously 24 games isn't a great sample, but I think it makes a fairly strong case for Brodeur being overrated. Especially considering that Schwab has never moved to another team and become a starter. He's a career NHL backup, and his stats are comparable to Brodeur's when he was with the Devils, but terrible everywhere else.

Goalie stats for 93-94
Player GP Min GA GAA W L T Svs Pct EN SO
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin Brodeur 47.00 2625 105 2.40 27 11 8 1133 0.915 0 3
Chris Terreri 44.00 2340 106 2.72 20 11 4 1035 0.907 2 2
Peter Sidorkiewicz 3.00 130 6 2.77 0 3 0 49 0.891 1 0

94-95
Martin Brodeur 40.00 2184 89 2.45 19 11 6 819 0.902 1 3
Chris Terreri 15.00 734 31 2.53 3 7 2 278 0.900 0 0

95-96
Corey Schwab 10.00 331 12 2.18 0 3 0 107 0.899 0 0
Martin Brodeur 77.00 4434 173 2.34 34 30 12 1772 0.911 8 6
Chris Terreri 4.00 210 9 2.57 3 0 0 83 0.902 0 0

96-97
Martin Brodeur 67.00 3838 120 1.88 37 14 13 1513 0.927 5 10
Mike Dunham 26.00 1013 43 2.55 8 7 1 413 0.906 1 2
Jeff Reese 3.00 139 13 5.61 0 2 0 52 0.800 0 0

97-98
Martin Brodeur 70.00 4128 130 1.89 43 17 8 1569 0.917 4 10
Richard Shulmistra 1.00 62 2 1.94 0 1 0 30 0.933 0 0
Mike Dunham 15.00 773 29 2.25 5 5 3 332 0.913 0 1
Peter Sidorkiewicz 1.00 20 1 3.00 0 0 0 8 0.875 0 0

98-99
Martin Brodeur 70.00 4239 162 2.29 39 21 10 1566 0.906 4 4
Chris Terreri 12.00 726 30 2.48 8 3 1 264 0.898 0 1

99-00
Martin Brodeur 72.00 4312 161 2.24 43 20 8 1797 0.910 3 6
Chris Terreri 12.00 649 37 3.42 2 9 0 299 0.876 2 0

00-01
John Vanbiesbrouck 4.00 240 6 1.50 4 0 0 87 0.935 0 1
Martin Brodeur 72.00 4297 166 2.32 42 17 11 1762 0.906 2 9
Chris Terreri 10.00 453 21 2.78 2 5 1 146 0.874 0 0

01-02
John Vanbiesbrouck 5.00 300 10 2.00 2 3 0 117 0.915 2 0
Martin Brodeur 73.00 4347 156 2.15 38 26 9 1655 0.906 5 4
Jean-Francois Damphousse 6.00 294 12 2.45 1 3 0 115 0.896 1 0
Scott Clemmensen 2.00 20 1 3.00 0 0 0 5 0.800 0 0

02-03
Corey Schwab 11.00 614 15 1.47 5 3 1 208 0.933 0 1
Martin Brodeur 73.00 4374 147 2.02 41 23 9 1559 0.914 4 9

03-04
Corey Schwab 3.00 187 2 0.64 2 0 1 66 0.971 0 1
Scott Clemmensen 4.00 237 4 1.01 3 1 0 80 0.952 0 2
Martin Brodeur 75.00 4554 154 2.03 38 26 11 1691 0.917 4 11

New Jersey's GAA since Brodeur has been on the team: 2.31
Martin Brodeur's career GAA: 2.17

.14 goals against per game, IMO is not the difference between the "best goaltender of all time" and a backup goaltender. That's only one goal per seven games played. Brodeur's stats are largely the result of playing on a great defensive team for his whole career.

Just for fun I did some similar statistical research on a goalie on another team and his backup for the time period between the 2000-01 to 2003-04 seasons.

Starter goalie: 104-57-23 2.14 GAA 0.917 sv%
Backup goalie: 32-25-3 2.19 GAA 0.919 sv%

Now to end the suspense and reveal the goalies: the starter is Patrick Roy and the backup is David Aebischer

Wow, golly this must mean Patrick Roy is even more overrated then Brodeur as Aebischer's GAA is even closer to Roy's then Marty's backups are to him. And then his save percentage is even higher then Roy's. Someone notify the hockey news, the world must be made to learn the fallacy of Patrick's so called greatness

I rest my case.

 

[pavel13]

Just for fun I did some similar statistical research on a goalie on another team and his backup for the time period between the 2000-01 to 2003-04 seasons.

Starter goalie: 104-57-23 2.14 GAA 0.917 sv%
Backup goalie: 32-25-3 2.19 GAA 0.919 sv%

Now to end the suspense and reveal the goalies: the starter is Patrick Roy and the backup is David Aebischer

Wow, golly this must mean Patrick Roy is even more overrated then Brodeur as Aebischer's GAA is even closer to Roy's then Marty's backups are to him. And then his save percentage is even higher then Roy's. Someone notify the hockey news, the world must be made to learn the fallacy of Patrick's so called greatness

I rest my case.

Patrick Roy was on the decline and Aebishcer is not a career backup. Many people even believe that he should have gotten Vezina consideration (and in his first season as a starter to boot). I rest my case.

 

[meehan]

Patrick Roy was on the decline and Aebishcer is not a career backup. Many people even believe that he should have gotten Vezina consideration (and in his first season as a starter to boot). I rest my case.

Funny, Patrick Roy was 1st NHL allstar team in 2002. And then he had a .920 sv% in the next year. Pretty good for a declined goalie. Too bad Aebischer was overlooked for the vezina in 2002 with his .931 sv% and all

Man the Avalanche rock, they found another hall of fame goalie to replace their former HOF goalie. No, they found an even better one. He has to be, his career stats are better :lol

 

[pavel13]

Funny, Patrick Roy was 1st NHL allstar team in 2002. And then he had a .920 sv% in the next year. Pretty good for a declined goalie. Too bad Aebischer was overlooked for the vezina in 2002 with his .931 sv% and all

Man the Avalanche rock, they found another hall of fame goalie to replace their former HOF goalie. No, they found an even better one. He has to be, his career stats are better :lol

Hmm, you did a very good job of putting words in my mouth and making fun of me.

I'm not saying that stats are everything. I'm saying that stats (which is one of the biggest reasons that Brodeur is considered to be one of the best if not the best of all time) make a case for Brodeur being overrated. People frequently say that "Brodeur is on pace to break ____ record set by Roy, Sawchuk, etc." Stats are without a doubt a big consideration. Brodeur's stats don't give me much of a reason to believe that he is the best ever. They tell me little other than that he is better than Chris Terreri and Corey Schwab.

It's funny that you only gave me three years of stats (only a relatively small fraction of Roy's career), while I listed ALL of the stats for NJ goaltenders since Brodeur's first NHL game.

 

[meehan]

Hmm, you did a very good job of putting words in my mouth and making fun of me.

I'm not saying that stats are everything. I'm saying that stats (which is one of the biggest reasons that Brodeur is considered to be one of the best if not the best of all time) make a case for Brodeur being overrated. People frequently say that "Brodeur is on pace to break ____ record set by Roy, Sawchuk, etc." Stats are without a doubt a big consideration. Brodeur's stats don't give me much of a reason to believe that he is the best ever. They tell me little other than that he is better than Chris Terreri and Corey Schwab.

It's funny that you only gave me three years of stats (only a relatively small fraction of Roy's career), while I listed ALL of the stats for NJ goaltenders since Brodeur's first NHL game.

Well stat boy, since you love numerical research so much why don't you do all of Patrick Roy's backups stats since his day one. Also, why stop there; do the stats for all the HOF goalies, then we can learn of all the HOF goalies who shouldn't be there. If you are going to bring up stats to bring down one player, get the stats for all the players so we can do a fair comparison.

Let me also say that what exactly would you like to see of his and his backups stats that would show you he's the best? I mean his stats are far superior to his backups(and YES a 2.38 GAA is very different from a 2.15 GAA as that comes out to about 16 goals on the year and last year Brodeur had 16 one goal wins which hypothetically would become ties if backups played and thus the Devils would have 16 less points which would put them OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS). And if you want to compare him to guys like Sawchuk, well scoring in Sawchuk's era was very similar to scoring in todays game. The amount of goals a game then is similar to the amount scored in todays game. Thus him getting the shutout record is a big accomplishment that should be on the same level as sawchuk's record.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

When everyone in this draft is retired, and their careers may be reflected upon without the bias of present day happenings affecting said evaluation, Jagr will be almost unanimously viewed as the best player of this draft class.

agreed.

What he did in his first 11 seasons was just sickeningly amazing.

While Jagr is a shell of himself, he's still putting up great numbers, it's not like he had a Lindros-like fallout.

 

[pavel13]

Well stat boy, since you love numerical research so much why don't you do all of Patrick Roy's backups stats since his day one. Also, why stop there; do the stats for all the HOF goalies, then we can learn of all the HOF goalies who shouldn't be there. If you are going to bring up stats to bring down one player, get the stats for all the players so we can do a fair comparison.

Let me also say that what exactly would you like to see of his and his backups stats that would show you he's the best? I mean his stats are far superior to his backups(and YES a 2.38 GAA is very different from a 2.15 GAA as that comes out to about 16 goals on the year and last year Brodeur had 16 one goal wins which hypothetically would become ties if backups played and thus the Devils would have 16 less points which would put them OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS). And if you want to compare him to guys like Sawchuk, well scoring in Sawchuk's era was very similar to scoring in todays game. The amount of goals a game then is similar to the amount scored in todays game. Thus him getting the shutout record is a big accomplishment that should be on the same level as sawchuk's record.

I'm not trying to say that Brodeur isn't deserving of being in the HoF. I'm saying that he is overrated, and I was using that statement as support as to why I would take Jagr over Brodeur.

I mean his stats are far superior to his backups(and YES a 2.38 GAA is very different from a 2.15 GAA as that comes out to about 16 goals on the year and last year Brodeur had 16 one goal wins which hypothetically would become ties if backups played and thus the Devils would have 16 less points which would put them OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS).

Where are you getting this 2.15 and 2.38 GAA from? Did you just make that up? No New Jersey goaltender had a GAA of 2.15 or 2.38 this year. If you're just going to make up stats, why should I even bother talking to you?

 

[meehan]

Where are you getting this 2.15 and 2.38 GAA from? Did you just make that up? No New Jersey goaltender had a GAA of 2.15 or 2.38 this year. If you're just going to make up stats, why should I even bother talking to you?

I don't make anything up. Since the 1994-1995 season(when Brodeur became the undisputed # 1 in Jersey) he has a record of 374-205-97 with a 2.15 GAA. In that same time period, his backups had a 48-52-10 record, gave up 278 goals in 7002 minutes, which comes out to a 2.38 GAA. If you don't believe me go add up the goals and minutes of all the backups in that timespan and do the math yourself.

Let me just add that if you want to start in the 1993-1994 season, his backups had a 68-66-14 record with a 2.47 GAA. His career numbers are 403-217-105 with a 2.17 GAA. A 0.3 difference in GAA is a big difference and the backups record proves it.