1987 Canada Cup What-If

[golfortennis]

Now yes, there are many what-ifs we can say about this tournament, in particular Patrick Roy perhaps, or some of the cuts Canada made, so I'd like to acknowledge that upfront, but not have the thread derail through all the different possibilities. But watching TSN replay the final the last couple days made me wonder something.

Looking at the standings, Canada, USSR and Sweden all won 3 games. Sweden defeated the Soviets in the round robin 5-3, only to have that result flipped, 4-2 in the semis. Canada defeated Sweden 5-3 in the round robin. So Sweden was a tough team.

Acknowledging also that the Canada-Soviet matchup was very likely the greatest collection of talent on ice at one time, how much of a monkey wrench does Sweden throw into things if Pelle Lindbergh is in net, rather than the unfortunate events that actually took place? Was Lindbergh good enough that his presence changes how things play out in this tournament?

I was not old enough to form my own opinions of Lindbergh other than it seemed he sure played really well in 1985 prior to things, but it could also be mythologizing that time can do.

Apologies if this has been discussed before, I just didn't see it on a search.

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[Staniowski]

Sweden was missing several top players - Loob, Sandstrom, Steen, etc.

 

[JackSlater]

You never know but I don't think that it is likely he changes anything. Sweden lost to USSR 4-2 in the semi-finals. Not that things would play out exactly in the same way but it's hard to imagine the Soviets being kept to 1 goal without a massive goaltending performance, and I don't think that Lindbergh was worth a difference of three goals to Sweden. In the round-robin Sweden had two losses, by 3 goals to USA and 2 goals to Canada. It's a tall order for a goaltender to bridge either of those gaps.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

beyond lindbergh, players i'd expect to be on that sweden team that weren't—

loob, sandstrom, steen, as mentioned above

stefan persson (had just left the NHL a year earlier, played four more years in the SEL), pelle eklund (coming off a 27 point playoff run), patrik sundstrom squarely in his prime, jan erixon already getting selke votes, both samuelssons (ulf getting norris votes, kjell coming off a finals run), thomas gradin is about to leave for the SEL where he will play for three more productive years, and of course there's borje salming

ulf dahlen is only 20, but he seems to have done well in the SEL the year before and was about to have a pretty impressive rookie year with the rangers

but then again, i have no idea who any of those non-NHL guys are so maybe there were legitimately better options than some of these guys, or maybe they had national team or domestic league chemistry that was desirable.

 

[PurpleMouse]

Didn't Sweden also beat the USSR at Worlds that year? Noteworthy, because I'd assume in the 80s the Soviets would have always been full strength but presumably the Swedes had some guys missing in the NHL playoffs.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

Didn't Sweden also beat the USSR at Worlds that year? Noteworthy, because I'd assume in the 80s the Soviets would have always been full strength but presumably the Swedes had some guys missing in the NHL playoffs.

They lost and tied the USSR in 1987. The USSR went undefeated and lost the Gold on goal differential.

 

[Big Phil]

Does anyone remember why Lindbergh didn't play in the 1984 Canada Cup? He was in the 1980 Olympics, played two game on the 1981 Canada Cup team but nothing on 1984 when Sweden actually made the final.

The best example you can give is the 1985 Stanley Cup final. Lindbergh is playing against a powerful offensive team at their peak in the Oilers and he did not fare well. Was pulled in two games in the series and didn't even play in the final clincher game, that was Bob Froese who got shelled for 8 goals. So in a year where he won the Vezina he wasn't a deciding factor in the Cup final, but then again, it's the Oilers. So in other words I don't think he puts them over the top against the Soviets in 1987 if he were alive. Grant Fuhr barely put Canada over the top as it was.

 

[JianYang]

Was patrick roy supposed to be a given to make the team at this point? On the surface, I fail to see why he would be a lock. He was a sensation in 1986 as a rookie, and basically split time with Hayward in 87. Wasn't Hayward also starting some playoff games too? Also, it not like Patrick was
coming through the ranks with alot of fanfare either.

The conclusion at that time might be that Patrick had an amazing run in 86, but was it a fluke given that he didn't establish himself as a clear #1 the following year?

That doesn't sound like a goalie with the cache to be an automatic goalie on team canada.

Maybe someone who remembers 87 Patrick can shed some light on this. Why was Hayward getting so many starts?

 

[Staniowski]

Was patrick roy supposed to be a given to make the team at this point? On the surface, I fail to see why he would be a lock. He was a sensation in 1986 as a rookie, and basically split time with Hayward in 87. Wasn't Hayward also starting some playoff games too? Also, it not like Patrick was
coming through the ranks with alot of fanfare either.

The conclusion at that time might be that Patrick had an amazing run in 86, but was it a fluke given that he didn't establish himself as a clear #1 the following year?

That doesn't sound like a goalie with the cache to be an automatic goalie on team canada.

Maybe someone who remembers 87 Patrick can shed some light on this. Why was Hayward getting so many starts?

No, I don't think many people were surprised that Roy didn't make the team.

There were other cuts that were much more controversial.

 

[Staniowski]

During the '87 Canada Cup, Mats Naslund called Peter Lindmark the best goaltender in the world.

He was a good goalie.

 

[Staniowski]

Does anyone remember why Lindbergh didn't play in the 1984 Canada Cup? He was in the 1980 Olympics, played two game on the 1981 Canada Cup team but nothing on 1984 when Sweden actually made the final.

The best example you can give is the 1985 Stanley Cup final. Lindbergh is playing against a powerful offensive team at their peak in the Oilers and he did not fare well. Was pulled in two games in the series and didn't even play in the final clincher game, that was Bob Froese who got shelled for 8 goals. So in a year where he won the Vezina he wasn't a deciding factor in the Cup final, but then again, it's the Oilers. So in other words I don't think he puts them over the top against the Soviets in 1987 if he were alive. Grant Fuhr barely put Canada over the top as it was.

No, I don't remember about Lindbergh in '84. I can't find any record of him being injured.

I notice that he only played in 8 of the Flyers final 30 games in '84. And the Flyers GA wasn't nearly as good when he was playing, compared to Froese.

 

[Big Phil]

Was patrick roy supposed to be a given to make the team at this point? On the surface, I fail to see why he would be a lock. He was a sensation in 1986 as a rookie, and basically split time with Hayward in 87. Wasn't Hayward also starting some playoff games too? Also, it not like Patrick was
coming through the ranks with alot of fanfare either.

The conclusion at that time might be that Patrick had an amazing run in 86, but was it a fluke given that he didn't establish himself as a clear #1 the following year?

That doesn't sound like a goalie with the cache to be an automatic goalie on team canada.

Maybe someone who remembers 87 Patrick can shed some light on this. Why was Hayward getting so many starts?

Here is a good comparison. It is a lot like Cam Ward making Team Canada in 2007, had they had a World Cup. Ward is a rookie in 2006, has a decent year, but then wins the Cup and Conn Smythe. The next year in 2007 we know for sure he is not beating out Brodeur and Luongo on any team Canada. The third goalie might be someone like Giguere, Turco, possibly Fleury and then Ward. But he is at best just in the mix. Maybe he is the 3rd guy, who knows, but it is hardly a knock if he isnt and that is sort of the same thing with Roy in 1987. He wins the Cup as a rookie, the Conn Smythe as well, and then has split duty with Hayward in 1987 and actually gets benched in the playoffs that year. It is obvious this was the start of his greatness in 1986 but no one knew for sure in 1987, just like I am sure in 2007 we all thought Ward would have had a better career. All of this is in hindsight and people need to take it the way it was perceived at the time. Fuhr would be the number 1 guy for sure, Hextall won the Vezina and had a thrilling postseason where he won the Conn Smythe a rare case in a losing cause. I can see why Keenan felt these two would be the 1-2 punch, even though Hextall never played. The third stringer was never going to see any time, but Hrudey was on a bit of a hot streak in 1987 after his performance in the Easter Epic and actually finished a surprising 5th in Vezina voting in 1986. I know, hard to believe, but it happened. Keenan just claimed that Hrudey made the team out of training camp. Roy not being picked in 1996, now THAT was cause for concern and likely cost Canada the World Cup.

No, I don't remember about Lindbergh in '84. I can't find any record of him being injured.

I notice that he only played in 8 of the Flyers final 30 games in '84. And the Flyers GA wasn't nearly as good when he was playing, compared to Froese.

Well that could be it then. Maybe he was nursing an injury and didn`t want to re-aggravate it during the Canada Cup.

 

[Kshahdoo]

What if they had modern officiating?