GDT: 18 years and counting (Carolina @ Vancouver)

[bleedgreen]

Peters system took a minor league team and immediately made them better, and more importantly better to watch. Firing the coach is a witch hunt. These guys couldn't shoot straight last year or the year before. Reminds me of when Skinner was being "suffocated" by the coaches oppressive system until he almost hit 40 last year.

The system isn't telling Aho to miss the net or hit as many posts as he can in one season. The system isn't telling Lindholm to shoot high blocker when there's no high blocker available over and over. The system isn't telling Rask to go hide under a rock, he had his best season in this system.

We get TONS of good chances and don't finish. That's not on the coach. That isn't a motivational issue. We're one game removed from the most motivated and passionate game we've seen this team play in years (and win...) and one game later you're ready to fire the coach because of motivation issues and system comprehension.

If you're supposed to be on meds, please take them and call off the witch hunt until at least next game. Two in row is the hf standard for meltdowns, get with it people.

 

[StormCast]

I think Peters system is fine, it’s not revolutionary in any way. It’s actually evolved into something where they take more risks now than they did in prior years to generate offense. And what does that mean when your only center with a modicum of ability is Jordan Staal? Scotty Bowman couldn’t coach a team with the trash they have down the middle to the playoffs.

True and that's saying something with the stone hands that Staal has. The collective assist totals from the top 3 C's has got to be worst in the league - by a long shot.

 

[Joe McGrath]

True and that's saying something with the stone hands that Staal has. The collective assist totals from the top 3 C's has got to be worst in the league - by a long shot.

I’d venture to guess goals and point totals as well.

 

[StormCast]

Peters system took a minor league team and immediately made them better, and more importantly better to watch. Firing the coach is a witch hunt. These guys couldn't shoot straight last year or the year before. Reminds me of when Skinner was being "suffocated" by the coaches oppressive system until he almost hit 40 last year.

The system isn't telling Aho to miss the net or hit as many posts as he can in one season. The system isn't telling Lindholm to shoot high blocker when there's no high blocker available over and over. The system isn't telling Rask to go hide under a rock, he had his best season in this system.

We get TONS of good chances and don't finish. That's not on the coach. That isn't a motivational issue. We're one game removed from the most motivated and passionate game we've seen this team play in years (and win...) and one game later you're ready to fire the coach because of motivation issues and system comprehension.

If you're supposed to be on meds, please take them and call off the witch hunt until at least next game. Two in row is the hf standard for meltdowns, get with it people.

Agreed. With the dearth of quality, play-making centers, this team is like a rudderless ship. Without consistent finishers, you need better play makers or this is what you get.

 

[Stickpucker]

Glad I didn't stay up past the 1st period for this one. Same old, same old.

Last year at this time vs. this year at this time:

12/6/16: 10-10-5; 6 points out of the last playoff spot, -7 Goal Difference
12/6/17: 11-10-5; 6 points out of a the last playoff spot, -8 Goal Difference

That's what we call progress boys!

 

[Joe McGrath]

This isn’t the right place to be criticizing Darling because when you get shutout the goalie is the last person to blame.

However I know there was some discussion about how playing Ward more is stupid because he’s so terrible.

Ward through Dec 6. 2016 - 8-7-4 .920, 2.08

Darling through Dec 6. 2017 - 7-8-5 .900, 2.69.

Giving Darling the benefit of the doubt as scoring has increased significantly this year, but not 20 sv% points and not .61 goals per game.

I’m not going to pretend Ward had been spectacular but he’s earned more starts. Again, unless they truly don’t give a shit about making the playoffs this year and this is all about giving Darling 60 games come hell or high water so that he’s ready to carry the load next year. Just seems so stupid. Ward could be a 30 start per year goalie still and not be a downgrade in net. But for whatever reason (financial commitment) the organization has decided its Darling or bust.

 

[Canes]

Other coaches seem to do more with less. Obviously I'm sure someone will disagree, and there very well may be a great reason for Peters not doing so.

I don't know if it's his choice to keep Brindy around or not, but either way our atrocious PP is a big problem. If Francis is the one forcing Peters to keep him around, that's another big problem and another strike against Francis' tenure as GM.

It's easy to blame the players for not playing well, but when it becomes a pattern of the same failures over and over again you have to start examining coaching and management.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Agreed. With the dearth of quality, play-making centers, this team is like a rudderless ship. Without consistent finishers, you need better play makers or this is what you get.

It’s lack of ability in general, not playmaking. TT, Aho, Williams, and Lindholm are all playmakers before goal scorers. If Rask or Ryan were Jeff Carter or Sean Monahan it wouldn’t matter that they aren’t “playmakers”.

 

[Ole Gil]

If the problem with the Canes was the players and not the system, every team would be using the same system, and they'd have both amazing Corsi numbers AND be crushing everyone on the stat sheet.

Who do the Canes have that are 'great' possession players? Jordan Staal and ...? Yet everybody has amazing possession stats. Derek Ryan has a 60 CF% right now. Victor Rask has 58%.

That puts them even with Sydney Crosby and ahead of Anze Kopitar. Do you think they are just that good at possession, or is it more likely the Canes are doing some crazy nonsense that artificially inflates those numbers and clearly comes at a price?

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

What if the players can't execute Peters' system the way he wants, because Peters' system is stupid? Is there any evidence that it's a good system? Is it suspicious that nobody else in the NHL seems to be attempting what Peters is?

Mike Babcock.

Personally I blame the fact that we have two soft 2nd/3rd liners centered by a stone handed grinder as the #1 line, followed by two AHL'ers with Jeff Skinner, followed by two 2nd/3rd liners in Lindholm/JWilly centered by a guy who is barely contributing at this point.

You take Derek Ryan out of the lineup and replace him with a legitimate 1st line center, and suddenly everything falls into proper place.

On that note, I think that's why Slavin/Pesce/Faulk have all "regressed", teams have figured out that they can swarm the defenders who are trying to get the puck out of the zone, and if a breakout happens anyway, who cares, it's Rask, Derek Ryan and Hadyn Fleury back on the 3 on 2. This happened twice in succession last night, Derek Ryan and someone else got a 2 on 1 because the Nucks were being incredibly aggressive, (the entire night they would have 3 guys below the dots while the Hurricanes had possession), the Canes failed to convert both times. Slavin's weird angle on the Vanek goal notwithstanding.

While playing hyper aggerssive forechecking 60% of the time nothing happens, 20% either way your team will get the puck/they will get the puck the other way. Pretend that's true. If you're gameplanning for the Hurricanes, and you look at their forwards, 26/31 or more teams are going to take that tradeoff every day of the week.

That puts them even with Sydney Crosby and ahead of Anze Kopitar. Do you think they are just that good at possession, or is it more likely the Canes are doing some crazy nonsense that artificially inflates those numbers and clearly comes at a price?

Peters' system is able to get guys like Ryan and Rask a lot of possession, but is unable to compensate when the players it gets possession are not good hockey players.

 

[StormCast]

It’s lack of ability in general, not playmaking. TT, Aho, Williams, and Lindholm are all playmakers before goal scorers. If Rask or Ryan were Jeff Carter or Sean Monahan it wouldn’t matter that they aren’t “playmakers”.

As I stated, it's both playmaking and finishing. Yes, those guys are but the problem is they don't play center. That's the point, as you have two potential plays to make on either side with each possession.

 

[Ole Gil]

Canes have 243 more shot attempts than their opponents at 5v5 (#1 in league). Oilers are 2nd with 198. Columbus 3rd with 141. Only 7 teams are over 100.

Babcock was mentioned. Toronto is at +17.

When tied, Canes are at +98 (#2)
Toronto is at -56.

These numbers and "canes are playing a common style" do not gel.

 

[MinJaBen]

I think the problem with this team is multifaceted: it is both the players and the system in combination. Yes, we don't have the best players in the world, and yes the system is pretty good. But we've seen for a couple of years now the same performance out of these players playing the same system. Do we really think based on that record that the players are going to miraculously start playing better in the system? More importantly, does the coaches and management think that is going to happen? So if Ron isn't going to change the players (which, admittedly is not easy to do on a dime) the only other solution is to modify the system to accentuate the best of the players and cover the flaws as much as possible. Unfortunately, I have seen little to no evidence that Peters is willing to do that. For that reason, the performance of this team, or the lack of it, is more on the coach than anyone else.

 

[Breakdowns]

Take a shot and your therapy will be complete.

EDIT: Shot of alcohol. I don't want there to be any confusion.

I think after this game I will take a shot from a gun instead

Given Markstrom’s situation we’re getting shutout, no doubt.

our prophet #1

SHUTOUT

SHUTOUT

SHUTOUT

(no markstrom shutout since 2010)

ITLL HAPPEN TONIGHT!!!

our prophet #2

and many more, I guess you guys are familiar with the team


I am somehow glad I spoiled game result by accident, almost wasted 2,5 hours of my life for this.

I think this team needs a big trade to shake things up badly.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Canes have 243 more shot attempts than their opponents at 5v5 (#1 in league). Oilers are 2nd with 198. Columbus 3rd with 141. Only 7 teams are over 100.

Babcock was mentioned. Toronto is at +17.

When tied, Canes are at +98 (#2)
Toronto is at -56.

These numbers and "canes are playing a common style" do not gel.

Peters better coach than Mike Babcock confirmed.

 

[Joe McGrath]

As I stated, it's both playmaking and finishing. Yes, those guys are but the problem is they don't play center. That's the point, as you have two potential plays to make on either side with each possession.

Playing center doesn’t necessarily mean that, but it’s not an argument worth having. Those two being shit is the issue.

Canes have 243 more shot attempts than their opponents at 5v5 (#1 in league). Oilers are 2nd with 198. Columbus 3rd with 141. Only 7 teams are over 100.

Babcock was mentioned. Toronto is at +17.

When tied, Canes are at +98 (#2)
Toronto is at -56.

These numbers and "canes are playing a common style" do not gel.

What do you think they are doing in particular stylistically that doesn’t generate more goals, or doesn’t prevent enough goals?

We talk a lot about Peters system here and I wonder if any of us know enough about hockey at the highest level to have even the slightest clue what this system actually is.

 

[StormCast]

Playing center doesn’t necessarily mean that, but it’s not an argument worth having. Those two being **** is the issue.




What do you think they are doing in particular stylistically that doesn’t generate more goals, or doesn’t prevent enough goals?

We talk a lot about Peters system here and I wonder if any of us know enough about hockey at the highest level to have even the slightest clue what this system actually is.

It is the point. Lack of finishing ability means you either need luck or better playmaking to provide easier scoring chances. That's why teams build down the middle but this group of C's are horrible playmakers. This team has a dire need for at least one bona fide playmaking center.

To your second point, there is nothing inherent in BP's system to limit scoring or scoring chances. The lack of results are self-inflicted.

 

[Joe McGrath]

It is the point. Lack of finishing ability means you either need luck or better playmaking to provide easier scoring chances. That's why teams build down the middle but this group of C's are horrible playmakers. This team has a dire need for at least one bona fide playmaking center.

Ofcourse they do. That’s what Rask is supposed to be. But he’s been terrible. That’s the type of player Ryan is. He isn’t a goal scorer. But he’s also shit.

They need good centers. Not shitty ones.

 

[Oogie Boogie]

It doesn't matter what the issue is anyways it won't be solved

 

[JCLA]

Playing center doesn’t necessarily mean that, but it’s not an argument worth having. Those two being **** is the issue.




What do you think they are doing in particular stylistically that doesn’t generate more goals, or doesn’t prevent enough goals?

We talk a lot about Peters system here and I wonder if any of us know enough about hockey at the highest level to have even the slightest clue what this system actually is.

Systems Analyst: How to Play for Bill Peters

good article on it.

 

[StormCast]

Ofcourse they do. That’s what Rask is supposed to be. But he’s been terrible. That’s the type of player Ryan is. He isn’t a goal scorer. But he’s also ****.

They need good centers. Not ****ty ones.

Obviously no argument there but even with Rask playing decent rather than abysmally, that unit is and has always been lacking. As noted earlier, I'd slot TT or Lindholm in the middle so they can work both sides of the ice. Even with limited NHL experience, they are both FAR better playmakers than anyone currently playing center for Carolina.

 

[Ole Gil]

What do you think they are doing in particular stylistically that doesn’t generate more goals, or doesn’t prevent enough goals?

We talk a lot about Peters system here and I wonder if any of us know enough about hockey at the highest level to have even the slightest clue what this system actually is.

2 the second part, probably not. But their being a statistical outlier for the past 3 years is some good evidence something wonky is happening.

As for particulars, they just seem uninterested in moves to the center of the ice. On the rush, it's up the wall. With possession, it's back to the point. It leads to more shot attempts, longer possession time, but the opportunities are lousy.

Same for defense. They get up in the face of forwards to end possession quick at the blueline. But the degree of risk and difficulty seems crazy high. I just don't see other teams doing it. Our players get into the zone with possession and fire that wide angle shot, because the other team isn't scared of wide angle shots.

 

[Joe McGrath]

Obviously no argument there but even with Rask playing decent rather than abysmally, that unit is and has always been lacking. As noted earlier, I'd slot TT or Lindholm in the middle so they can work both sides of the ice. Even with limited NHL experience, they are both FAR better playmakers than anyone currently playing center for Carolina.

While that is true, they are also terrible in their own end when playing center. Not that Ryan is a prize himself in that regard, but Rask has been average at worst in his own zone.

I’d love to see a healthy Wallmark get an opportunity.

 

[StormCast]

While that is true, they are also terrible in their own end when playing center. Not that Ryan is a prize himself in that regard, but Rask has been average at worst in his own zone.

I’d love to see a healthy Wallmark get an opportunity.

TT needs work without the puck but Lindholm is solid overall in the defensive zone.

 

[Joe McGrath]

TT needs work without the puck but Lindholm is solid overall in the defensive zone.

As a wing he is. Better than solid I would say. When he’s the guy responsible for everything down low, he’s been bad in his only action this year, and the start of the year last year. Is it a case where if they left him there for a month or the whole year he would actually develop into a good center, maybe? Haven’t seen it yet though.